Planting depth of bulbs

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ezeiza

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Planting depth of bulbs
« on: January 22, 2012, 01:25:44 AM »
John, concerning contractile roots, something I found invaluable is to know the depth at which adult bulbs, corms and tubers are found in the wild. Herbarium vouchers are very useful along in that they show clearly the buried portion of the "stem". Nevertheless, I would greatly appreciate any comment based on your field experience (and others' of course) on the depth of bulbs in the wild.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 07:37:59 PM by Alisdair »

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John

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Re: Planting depth of bulbs
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2012, 11:02:03 AM »
Goodness, how can I cover such a wide topic in a few words!
I think that there is obviously no easy general rule. Depths of many geophytes I have experienced vary with habitat, soil type etc.
Colchicum is one that I feel I can say with some certainty are often deep. Twice the depth of the corm would perhaps be the norm though I have found Colchicum macrophyllum at least 30 cm deep in deep soil conditions. Though even this must vary as in the Aradena gorge in SW Crete it grows profusely as a chasmophyte on the gorge walls. They also produce their new corm in the same sinker style as tulips.
I must at this point say that in the course of my work I was granted permits to collect material by the Greek government! I also have been on several trips with the Cyclamen Society where we collected small quantities of Cyclamen again with permits for the Cyclamen Society.
Cyclamen, these can be at very variable depths again mostly to do with habitat. On slopes or very rocky terrain they can be sitting on the surface especially where erosion has taken place.
Cyclamen graecum and those of the repandum group e.g. C. creticum can be found at least as deep as 30cm and sometimes more. In these situations many cyclamen produce "floral trunks" which I like to describe as underground bushes in the sense that they appear to be obviously stems and branches and they are very perennial. These can be extensive in scree conditions especially with C. graecum.  
Crocus , my experience on Crete is that they are generally shallow, by this I mean around the depth of there corm around 2 cm. This was often the case with Crocus laevigatus. C. oreocreticus was deeper and occasionally several cm.
Muscari, from little experience, not very deep though obviously I have described how they can have contractile roots and so potentially they could be deeper.
Arum, they can get to quite a depth especially in good soil. They do, I'm sure, have contractile roots which will pull them down. Dracunculus are probably similar. D. canariensis also produces stolons. Biarum in my limited experience weren't particularly deep. Many geophytic Aroids produce their new tuber deeper than the old one.
Tulipa are known to get themselves down deeper. They do this with sinkers where the new bulb is produced on an extended growth and placed below the previous seasons bulb. Some species also produce stolons which as well as running sideways can sink lower.
Galanthus. These are obviously bulbs of good soil conditions. I have seen G. reginae-olgae many times in the Peloponnese where it grows in valleys most often near the water course. Only on one occasion did I see the bulbs exposed, probably due to erosion on a steep bank but the bulbs had a huge build up of old tunics which had not decayed and were like a thick corky protection to the exposed bulbs.
I think that this is a reasonable range of examples based on my knowledge generally. Others may have other experiences which they can relate.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 11:20:47 PM by John »
John
Horticulturist, photographer, author, garden designer and plant breeder; MGS member and RHS committee member. I garden at home in SW London and also at work in South London.

ezeiza

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Re: Planting depth of bulbs
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2012, 02:08:38 AM »
Fascinating, particularly the shallow crocuses. I am biased to "the deeper the better" and it seems to work but of course your comments are most useful. I suspect given a varieties of depths for the same species the deepest would be that the plant chose and the others result of erosion. Not in case of crocuses and some cylclamens of course.
Many thanks.

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Alisdair

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Re: Planting depth of bulbs
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2012, 11:45:59 AM »
Thanks very much, Alberto, for raising this question - and many thanks to you too, John, for such an interesting answer.
I hope others will chip in, with their own experience.
Alisdair Aird
Gardens in SE England (Sussex); also coastal Southern Greece, and (in a very small way) South West France; MGS member (and former president); vice chairman RHS Lily Group, past chairman Cyclamen Society

ezeiza

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Re: Planting depth of bulbs
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2012, 03:01:09 AM »
We grow our bulb collection in 20 litre/5 gallon "garden buckets" (plenty of videos in YouTube on their use for growing plants, although often with false and disparate information). These buckets/pails are 30 cm in diameter and 40 cm. tall. A container volume to grow very well a lot of species and hybrids and to provide proper depth for those that demand it. A number of bulbs will spend their energy in trying to go deeper every year (saffron, tulips, Androcymbium, Babiana, Rhodophiala, Erythronium, Sternbergia, Oxalis, you name it) at the expense of flower production. If this very important info is available one can plant really deep those species that are partial to it and thus save precious time.

David Bracey

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Re: Planting depth of bulbs
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2012, 11:12:56 AM »
Rule of thumb was to plant to the depth of the bulb, corm, rhizome, bean, seed etc.  It seems to have worked well.
MGS member.

 I have gardened in sub-tropical Florida, maritime UK, continental Europe and the Mediterranean basin, France. Of the 4 I have found that the most difficult climate for gardening is the latter.

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anita

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Re: Planting depth of bulbs
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2012, 06:53:49 PM »
Hi, Although this is garden, rather than in situ experience I thought it might be relevant.
Last week I dug up a clump of Crocus goulimyi 'Mani White' that have been in the garden left to their own devices for the past four years. I thought last years blooms had diminished from the previous years amd thought separation might encourage better flowering. I had expected them to have been fairly deep to escape Adelaide's hot summers (40 c for several days is not unusual). I was most surprised to find that the corms were very shallow no more than 3 cm deep. The bulbs are obviously happy I purchased 3 bulbs from Marcus Harvey in 08 and another 3 in 09. Last week I counted 28 mature corms a bit
Arger than hazelnuts and about 15 immature corms. I also noticed a seedling in the adjacent lawn last winter  - the striped leaf gave it away. And as I don't have any other Crocus in that vicinity it must have been a C. Goulimyi seedling - thinking of it now that seedling was surprisingly shallow too.
If you want to see pics of the Mani white in 2011 I posted  to the SRGC.
http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7014.msg198599#msg198599
Anita
Dry mediterranean climate, avg annual rainfall 530mm, little or no frost. Winter minimum 1C, summer max 45C

ezeiza

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Re: Planting depth of bulbs
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2012, 07:48:40 PM »
Most interesting, Anita, as you say, in a hot fierce sun climate.

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John

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Re: Planting depth of bulbs
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2012, 11:30:36 PM »
I mentioned that as a rule Colchicum like to be deeper in my experience. For a while I grew C. autumnale 'Alboplenum' which I lifted each season and put fresh feed in the bottom of the hole. I think it was just blood fish and bone, at least a good hand full. The clump increased and flowered well. Then I stopped lifting and feeding and they clump disappeared very quickly. This double is I think very greedy whereas many of the single easy species come back year after year with no care.
John
Horticulturist, photographer, author, garden designer and plant breeder; MGS member and RHS committee member. I garden at home in SW London and also at work in South London.

pamela

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Re: Planting depth of bulbs
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2012, 02:42:14 PM »
Oh, the frustration of trying to find out how deep to plant bulbs which I understand is crucial to them flowering, especially in our climate.
I have some Hymenocallis x festalis which I  would like to plant tomorrow as we have had some excellent rain in the Costa Blanca today.  However, every site I look at says something different. One said 5 inches deep, one 5cms deep and one said the bulb should have its neck showing.  Does anyone know a definitive site which has all the planting depths of bulbs........ and also does anyone know specifically about the Spider Lily?  Thanks
Jávea, Costa Blanca, Spain
Min temp 5c max temp 38c  Rainfall 550 mm 

"Who passes by sees the leaves;
 Who asks, sees the roots."
     - Charcoal Seller, Madagascar

ezeiza

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Re: Planting depth of bulbs
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2012, 06:49:28 PM »
The original thread concerned at which depth bulbs were found growing naturally.

Ismenes and Hymenocallises are always found with their bulbs deeply buried in the ground, never exposed. A 4-5 in.neck will be alright otherwise the bulbs will struggle to bury themselves.

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Alisdair

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Re: Planting depth of bulbs
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2012, 07:40:20 PM »
Pamela and Alberto: as you see I've brought these two threads together. It's great to have this information building up.
Alisdair Aird
Gardens in SE England (Sussex); also coastal Southern Greece, and (in a very small way) South West France; MGS member (and former president); vice chairman RHS Lily Group, past chairman Cyclamen Society

ezeiza

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Re: Planting depth of bulbs
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2012, 11:23:53 PM »
Ismenes have a false "stem" that hold the leaves app. up to 10 cm. above the ground level but this is always produced wether the bulbs are at the proper depth or not. As a matter of fact this is one of the characteristics that distinguish this genus from Hymenocallis (in which the leaves always spread at ground level or slightly below).