Vitalba or Flammula

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Cali

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Vitalba or Flammula
« on: June 22, 2011, 06:39:23 PM »
This time of year the country lanes here in Corfu are fragrant with the foamy white climber that clambers over trees and hedges. English speakers refer to it as "Traveller's Joy" or "Old Man's Beard." I think of it simply as "Wild Clematis" because I've gone back and forth several times between C.flammula and C. vitalba, recently leaning towards the second since it's the one that's supposed to be fragrant. Yesterday, while collecting large sprays from several places for a bridal bouquet I realized that it's possible there are two different plants. Could Corfu have both C. flammula and C. vitalba growing wild at exactly the same time of year?
The photo below is of the fragrant one. The other has slightly larger more elegant flowers, less densely bunched.
Can anyone help?
Cali Doxiadis
Former MGS President
Gardens in Corfu, Greece.

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Alisdair

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Re: Vitalba or Flammula
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2011, 07:10:38 PM »
I have absolutely no personal knowledge of clematis growing on Corfu, but I did track down a 1996 reference that reports both species growing on Corfu, Vegetation der Strassenränder Korfus, I think a doctoral thesis by Dietmar Brandes, which you can find on the internet if you click here. Though vitalba generally flowers a bit earlier than flammula both can flower over such a long period that I don't see why you shouldn't find both flowering at the same time, if they are both present on the island.
Alisdair Aird
Gardens in SE England (Sussex); also coastal Southern Greece, and (in a very small way) South West France; MGS member (and former president); vice chairman RHS Lily Group, past chairman Cyclamen Society

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John

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Re: Vitalba or Flammula
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2011, 10:56:20 PM »
I would say that the picture is of Clematis flammula from the general appearance and the leaflets are small. The larger leaves are those of Rubus (Blackberries).
John
Horticulturist, photographer, author, garden designer and plant breeder; MGS member and RHS committee member. I garden at home in SW London and also at work in South London.

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John

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Re: Vitalba or Flammula
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2011, 12:34:00 PM »
Just thought I'd mention that I have seen C. vitalba in the Peloponnese and I recently heard of a sighting on Crete which is surprising to me as I never came across it in all the years I was working on Crete for our book.
John
Horticulturist, photographer, author, garden designer and plant breeder; MGS member and RHS committee member. I garden at home in SW London and also at work in South London.

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JTh

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Re: Vitalba or Flammula
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2011, 05:30:43 PM »
The photo looks very much like C. flammula to me, it is full of flowers here in Halkidiki now. According to Oleg Polunin (Flowers of Greece and the Balkans), C. flammula is the fragrant one, he actually names it Fragrant clematis
Retired veterinary surgeon by training with a PhD in parasitology,  but worked as a virologist since 1992.
Member of the MGS  since 2004. Gardening in Oslo and to a limited extent in Halkidiki, Greece.

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JTh

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Re: Vitalba or Flammula
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2011, 09:50:40 AM »
Cali, I understand your going back between C. flammula and C. vitalba. I always thought what I see growing alongside the  roads near our place was C. flammula. Yesterday I went out to collect some seeds, at the first  stop I suddenly realised  the  seeds were not those of flammula, but vitalba, and when I looked at  leaves, I saw that they were larger. The seeds of C. vitalba were much  smaller, but the white 'fluff' (the silky fruit appendages) were much longer, so 'The old man's beard' was really appropriate. A few hundred meters further up, where I collected seeds before, I found both of them growing side by side. Next year I will have a closer look at the flowers and see if I can see a difference. So thank you, I learnt something new yesterday.
Retired veterinary surgeon by training with a PhD in parasitology,  but worked as a virologist since 1992.
Member of the MGS  since 2004. Gardening in Oslo and to a limited extent in Halkidiki, Greece.