Narcissus

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pamela

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2011, 07:09:11 PM »
Oh wow! that Narcissus serotinus is so so beautiful! :)
Jávea, Costa Blanca, Spain
Min temp 5c max temp 38c  Rainfall 550 mm 

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 Who asks, sees the roots."
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MikeHardman

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Narcissus obsoletus, Akamas Peninsula, Cyprus, 27dec11
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2011, 03:48:23 PM »
Just back from a hike to the lighthouse near the northern tip of the Akamas Peninsula (lovely day for it).

Quite a few narcissus in flower (along with Hyacinthella millingeni (many), Bellis sylvestris (many) and Romulea tempskyana (a few). Nice.

They seem to key out as N. obsoletus, but (again) not by ticking all the boxes.

To annotate Rafa's list of diagnostic characters:

Mediterranean element--> Narcissus obsoletus
Atlantic element--> N. serotinus
--> Cyprus --> N. o.

Orange corona--> Narcissus obsoletus
Yellow corona--> Narcissus serotinus
--> mine looks yellow, not orange --> N. s.

With a leave when blooms or not-->N. obsoletus
Without leave when blooms---> N. serotinus
--> I saw some with just a leaf --> N. o.

One or several flowers per scape---> N. obsoletus
One flower (rarely two) flowers per scape-->N. serotinus
--> often several flowers flower per scape --> N. o.

Perianth tube without segments, narrow--> N. obsoletus
Perianth tube with segments, like a wine bottle---> N. serotinus
--> narrow tube --> N. o.

Is the corona somewhat large?
[update - see Oron's identification as N. tazetta]
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 09:37:38 AM by MikeHardman »
Mike
Geologist by Uni training, IT consultant, Referee for Viola for Botanical Society of the British Isles, commissioned author and photographer on Viola for RHS (Enc. of Perennials, The Garden, The Plantsman).
I garden near Polis, Cyprus, 100m alt., on marl, but have gardened mainly in S.England

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oron peri

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2011, 04:33:31 PM »
Mike,
The narcissus is N. tazetta.
[N. obsoletus bloom is over by now]
Garden Designer, Bulb man, Botanical tours guide.
Living and gardening in Tivon, Lower Galilee region, North Israel.
Min temp 5c Max 42c, around 450mm rain.

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MikeHardman

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2011, 05:15:16 PM »
Ahh; that would explain the large corona.

But the entry for N. tazetta in the dynamic checklist of the Flora of Cyprus
does not include N. tazetta in the relevant geographical division (division 1).
(and I have checked that it has not been added in the contributions and supplementary notes 1-VI).
Do you know of any other records for N. tazetta in division 1?
I'll wait to hear from you then perhaps I shall need to get in contact with Ralf Hand.

Update:
- somebody else (Peter Greenwoods) has found it in division 1 (near Polis) -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21657471@N04/5489765716/in/set-72157626056434911/
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 05:20:24 PM by MikeHardman »
Mike
Geologist by Uni training, IT consultant, Referee for Viola for Botanical Society of the British Isles, commissioned author and photographer on Viola for RHS (Enc. of Perennials, The Garden, The Plantsman).
I garden near Polis, Cyprus, 100m alt., on marl, but have gardened mainly in S.England

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Rafa

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2012, 11:47:21 PM »
dear friends, sorry for the delay replying.

Mike your plants ar N. obsoletus, the colour of corona in this species is very variable, normally orange, it also could be more or less yellowish / greeish, N. serotinus always is the same color yellow.

Very interenting Narcissus tazetta, I've never seen such a large corona in this species. Is it fertile?

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MikeHardman

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2012, 09:40:45 AM »
Rafa
Thanks for confirming N. obsoletus in earlier post.
I don't know if the N. tazetta is fertile; unfortunately I'll may not be able to go that way again to check for seed at the right time.
Mike
Geologist by Uni training, IT consultant, Referee for Viola for Botanical Society of the British Isles, commissioned author and photographer on Viola for RHS (Enc. of Perennials, The Garden, The Plantsman).
I garden near Polis, Cyprus, 100m alt., on marl, but have gardened mainly in S.England

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Derrick

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2012, 11:06:50 AM »
Would like to throw a spanner in the works of the posts around mid/late oct 2011, regarding the name Narcissus miniatus. Would appreciate comments, but the text goes to publication soon, so if you think that I may have missed something, please let me know.

Narcissus miniatus Donn.-Morg., Koop. & Zonn., Daffodil Snowdrop Tulip Yearb. 2005-2006: 22 (2005).

Taxonomy

This little plant has become the object of controversy since its publication in 2005.

Most recently it has been suggested that it should be considered as Narcissus obsoletus (Haw.) Spach, Hist. Nat. Veg. 12: 452 (1846). However, the descriptions given are not of the plant described and illustrated as Narcissus miniatus.

Spach in Histoire Naturelle des Végétaux vol. 12 p. 452 (1846) describes the plant as 2 flowered with very narrow, rush-like, leaves (junciformis). Perianth segments oval-oblong, pointed, overlapping (imbricate). Corona, small, yellow. At this point Spach refers to Haworth’s description of Hermione obsoleta. Supplementum Plantarum Succulentarum: 146 (1819).

Haworth describes the plant as the ‘Leafy Autumnal’, with leaves with or just before the flowers; perianth segments white, nearly ovate; corona small, rudimentary, becoming yellowish. Haworth also cedes to Parkinson, remarking that ‘This is admitted solely on the faith of Parkinson, and has not, that I know of, been seen in our day’. 

In Paradisi in Sole Paradisus Terrestris (1629) John Parkinson writes of ‘Narcissus albus Autumnalis medio obsoletus. The white Autumne Daffodill with a sullen crowne. This Autumne Daffodill hath two or three leaves at the most, and very narrow, for that form does reckon it among the Rush Daffodils, being somewhat broad at the bottome, and more pointed at the toppe, betweene there leaves commeth up the stalk, bearing usually two flowers and no more at the toppe, made up of five white leaves apiece, pointed and not round: the cup is small and round, like unto the cup or crowne of the Rush Daffodill, of a yellow colour at the bottome, but towards the edge of a dunne or sullen colour’.

These descriptions vary considerably with the original description of Narcissus miniatus given below and cannot be considered to be synonymous with it.

Description

Bulb:      50 mm diam, dark brown, ovate.
Leaves:   not present on flowering plants
Scape:   1 – 4, (80-) 120 -180 (-300 mm) x (1-) 1.5 – 3 (-4 mm) elongating after flowering, round, green, striated.
Flowers:   (1) 2 – 4 (5-7) per scape, ascending or horizontal to 50mm diam. Tepals: white, apiculate to mucronate, flat or twisted, 10 – 25 mm x 3 – 10 mm. Corona; opening greenish-brown maturing to orange, to 3 mm x 0.5 – 2 mm high, 3 – 6 lobed. Pedicels; smooth, green (5-) 10 – 15 (-30 mm). Tube; 12 – 19 mm x 2 – 3 mm at widest point immediately below ovary, tapering gradually not inflated.
Anthers:   Included
Style:   Included
Fruit:   A capsule 5.5 – 14.5 x 5 – 7.5 mm
Seed:   black, angular 3 x 2 mm
Chrom:   2n = 30
DNA (pg):   50.5 (aver.)

Many morphological differences set this plant apart from other similar forms of
autumn flowering Narcissus. Narcissus elegans, which has leaves at flowering time
and N. serotinus, which has a single flower, with a yellow cup and an inflated tube.
DNA analysis suggests that Narcissus miniatus arose from the hybridisation of N.
serotinus with N. elegans and the subsequent doubling of the hybrid’s chromosome
number.

Distribution:   Throughout the Mediterranean, especially the north coast and islands. It appears to be absent from Morocco and this may extend eastwards on the southern Mediterranean coast.

Flowering:   September – October.


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John

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2012, 08:47:11 PM »
There was a plant which looked very vigourous with two flowers per stem in the Mani, south Peloponnese. I took it to be a good form of  N. serotinus but now I'm not so sure. It may have been this species!?
John
Horticulturist, photographer, author, garden designer and plant breeder; MGS member and RHS committee member. I garden at home in SW London and also at work in South London.

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Rafa

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2012, 10:40:30 PM »
I think all those botanist described the same plant that is very very variable, but not Narcissus elegans which is a costal/island element from Mediterranean sea, and it is not present in Peninsula Iberica. The only similar species, Narcissus malacitanus, is a relict population with arround 3000 plants, in a very hide mountain range, so the most plausible is Parkinson drew the plant so many times called N. serotinus.

Anyway, there is no obligation in follow a particular name or other name in taxonomy, there is a general agreement between taxonomist and I suppose this is that finally is accepted. But this puzzle me a lot, some names not valid are still apearing in the official list like IPNI, KEW etc. So I think each one should choose the name that he consider more legitime after know the plants, and the diferent names it receives..... Appart this, there is a reality that I can't understand, narcissus obsoletus (the name I personally support) and N. serotinus are two diferent species, but completely diferents and all the tries to separated them in the past were not successful, why?

For example there is an species Narcissus blancoi Barra, Gines Lopez wich is not accepted in Flora Iberica and also not accepted by the most important taxonomist in this field. This is an species that I know very well and I support it. So I will use Narcissus blancoi, because this is the only name for this species, unless it has been described by other author with other name.

Derrick consider N. minuatus a valid name, although is not gerealy accepted by most of taxonomist in this field, I consider valid N. blancoi although nobody (appart their authors) support it, Flora Iberica consider there is only N. bulbocodium (Linnean one) and the rest of plants are only "the normal variability of the species" we are all wrong and right, because the prooves are not like in mathematics 2+2=4. There are many ways of understand this genus, and mine is completely different from taxonomist in many senses, and it links to understand other genus as the same way.

I consider more important geohgraphical, chemical scent composition or pigment composition of the colour than IDNA studies or measures, it could give you a very chaotic idea from the species that currently grow in the nature. For example I support Narcissus nivalis Graells (there is no better name I think) the same species done diferent measures and DNA results depending the the soil and the altitude in the same mountai. This is why there are so many names, forms, varieties for the same species.

My theory might works because since I am thinking in this idea I discover 5 or 6 species considered hybrids all this time by taxonomists. I am also collaborating in another work about Alkaloids that will change many concepts about this genus.

John your plant is a Mediterranean element, that is currently called N. miniatus and N. obsoletus, you choose, but for sure it is not N. serotinus.

all the best,

Rafa

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Alisdair

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2012, 08:40:30 AM »
John, My own experience of this narcissus in the Peloponnese and on Crete, the plant that as Rafa says is currently accepted as N. obsoletus and that Derrick has suggested should be called N. miniatus, is that the number of flowers depends on cultural conditions. In dry and undernourished conditions, individual plants will normally have just the one flower, but if well nourished (as they were in that splendid population you and I both saw in a hen run on Crete about ten years ago) those same plants will have two or even three flowers to a stem.
I think Rafa is right - there will be no certainty about the naming of quite a few narcissus species until DNA testing has really got into its stride. But I agree with him that observations of living plants in their natural environments, taking into account all the factors that are necessarily absent from herbarium specimens (let alone from ancient authors' descriptions of them), are by far the best guide to appropriate naming of "awkward" species or populations. That's why for instance Mark Skinner's work on lily species in the Flora of North America (vol. 26) has been so very valuable.
Alisdair Aird
Gardens in SE England (Sussex); also coastal Southern Greece, and (in a very small way) South West France; MGS member (and former president); vice chairman RHS Lily Group, past chairman Cyclamen Society

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Derrick

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2012, 12:43:14 PM »
Controversy has always surrounded the naming of Narcissus and over the centuries many eminent botanists have attempted revision and simplification. In the earliest days of taxonomy, botanists would only occasionally see the plants they were naming. Much was done by communication in the form of letters from one botanist to another, or by line drawings. None of these methods was reliable. Embellishments and artistic licence was ever rampant and the plant was rarely captured ‘warts and all’. Many specimens sent to botanists for naming, arrived in an unrecognisable condition.

Such names as Narcissus juncifolius autumnalis flore viridi (John Parkinson ‘Paradisi in sole paradises terrestris’ 1629) whilst descriptive has been fortunately replaced by Narcissus viridiflorus in accordance with the binomial system as described by Carl Linnaeus (1707 – 1778) in his definitive works Genera plantarum (1742) and Species plantarum (1753). However, such names as Scilla peruviana and Narcissus cantabricus are themselves unhelpful. Richard Anthony Salisbury (1761 – 1829) did a great deal of work naming and renaming botanical specimens. Much of his work has been dismissed as plagiarism.

It isn’t until relatively recently that botanists have been able to study and observe plants in the wild, long after most of them have been named or misnamed. DNA studies have further enhanced our understanding of plants and their place in evolutionary botany to such an extent that plant relationships and names have needed to be amended to acknowledge the associations.

Taxonomy is not, as Rafa agrees, an exact science and even now, with all the 21st century knowledge at our fingertips, we still manage to get it wrong sometimes. I relay the wisdom of a past horticultural lecturer ‘The plant knows what it is’. Unfortunately the plants don’t pass their knowledge easily to us but equally fortunately they don’t read books.

A word should be said here about splitters and lumpers. The former are a curious breed of botanist that seems to believe that every form, variant and occasional exception to the norm, should be treated as a separate subspecie or even specie. Many of these differences are simply based on measurements and cannot therefore be regarded as reliable. Amounts of light, shade, soil depth and type will be factors in determining the strength and stature of a plant. Many research botanists, no doubt eager to retain University or Government funding, publish these names, only to discount them in subsequent publications. Lumpers, to which I would rather be associated, recognise that variations exist in all large populations of plants, and whilst these are interesting, they cannot be said to be sufficiently different or genetically stable to justify separate identities.

Narcissus miniatus is always

1.   Multiflowered, 2 – 7 flowers per scape. The stronger, more floriferous plants are seen in Southern Spain (Mike Salmon = var. grandiflorus [private correspondence]) with weaker 2 flowered plants towards the western Mediterranean populations – (MS = var. occidentalis).
2.   No leaves appear with or after the flowers. Only non flowering plants have leaves. These are seedling leaves, round and bright green. N. elegans has leaves at time of flowering and as Rafa says, is not represented in Spain.
3.   The corona is greenish-brown becoming bright orange. Not yellow as in N. serotinus. Or inrolled at the mouth as in N. elegans. (N. elegans has a distinct corona that is broader at the base than at the mouth, giving it a volcano crater type shape)
4.   N. serotinus has an obvious inflated floral tube. N. miniatus has a tube that gradually tapers.

Narcissus obsoletus from its earliest descriptions bears little resemblance to N. miniatus. I agree that the past descriptions may have been the fault of poor observation, communication and/or embellished drawings, but should we assume that the plant described is the one we are now looking at and compound this further with another error in plant taxonomy?

Narcissus nomenclature differs, depending on the authority one decides to choose. The RHS as the registration authority for Narcissus regards N. miniatus as a valid name and N x obsoletus as a hybrid between N. elegans & N. serotinus. Ben Zonneveld, obviously accepts N. miniatus as a valid name and supports this with his work ‘The Systematic value of nuclear DNA content for all species of Narcissus’ (2008). Kew accept N. obsoletus, relying on the work by Lifante & Camacho of 2007, which does not cite (and therefore did not discuss) the previous work by Donnison-Morgan, Koopowitz and Zonneveld in 2005.

Thank you Rafa, Alistair & Mike for your input into this discussion. Whilst there cannot be a consensus, it is important that views are expressed. I look forward to your further posts.




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Rafa

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2012, 04:22:21 PM »
To be sincere, I am not so intereting in names than in to know the esence of this genus, learning the geografical distribution, the relationships between species and the evolutive consecuences it will have. But obviously we have to name the species to be able a comunication between us. I am sure, if I said, N. obsoletus Derrik will understand me, as the same way I will understand him if he talk about N. miniatus, because it is the same plant, and this is the important concept here.

I wouldn't and I don't have (and nobody have to) justify why to use a name or other name, but I think it is impossible this particular plant has been not described in the past because it occurs in several countries arround Mediterraneans see, so it is probablly there are many prioritary older names, example: N. deficiens N. obsoletus... I don't know wich one to use, but surely the older name. This is the problem for taxonomist.
In other cases I don't know any valid name, for example in bulbocodium section. Linneo said "Narcissus bulbocodium L. grows between Sevilla and Portugal" this is like nothing because there are many species between these area. For this reason some botanist, suggest me to use Corbularia 1 (Guadarrama Mt Range/Gredos Mt. Range/ Estrella Mt. Range) Corbularia 2 (Ciudad Real, Toledo, Extremadura) Corbularia 4 (Guadalajara, Cuenca)... and so because I consider each N. bulbocodium subspecies as diferent species.

Other case of greenhouse taxonomy is Narcissus minor "grows in Hispania" OK, where?, because there are arround 5 differnet species isolated in 5 different geo-biological units in Spain. So conventional taxonomy is a tool that could be used to arrive very close, but there are other considerations that should be also important and new technics that should me used to determine the species in certain complex genus like narcissus.

I would like to refine Derrik coment, N. miniatus/obsoletus/deficiens, could have 1-8 flowers, this character depedns (I think) of the maturity of the bulbs like in other species like N. triandrus subsp. pallidulkus/N. cernuus that also could have 1 to 8 flowers. There are localities  where you can find at the seme time palnts blooming with a leaf and others without leaf. Ther are plants very vigorous and plants very graceful. This is the real own variability in the species, in the same pupulation you can find a huge range of tepals forms, corona colour aswell... One of the most beautiful form I've seen in pictures is the one that Gerd Knoche selected, with peachy tepals.

N. serotinus also could have two flowers per scpape, curiously I find it in areas where it is the distribution limit of N. obosletus, and I consider this kind of plants as new crosses between (in this order) N. serotinus x N. obosletus ... In narcissus at least, is not the same AxB than BxA.

Fist thing to determine both species: geographical origin (be careful with plants between Cordoba and Sevilla, because they are together)
Second, Perianth tube.
Third, corona colour.

all the best,

Rafa.

HansA

  • Jr. Member
Re: Narcissus
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2012, 04:33:27 PM »

Narcissus miniatus is always

1.   Multiflowered, 2 – 7 flowers per scape. The stronger, more floriferous plants are seen in Southern Spain (Mike Salmon = var. grandiflorus [private correspondence]) with weaker 2 flowered plants towards the western Mediterranean populations – (MS = var. occidentalis).
2.   No leaves appear with or after the flowers. Only non flowering plants have leaves. These are seedling leaves, round and bright green. N. elegans has leaves at time of flowering and as Rafa says, is not represented in Spain.
3.   The corona is greenish-brown becoming bright orange. Not yellow as in N. serotinus. Or inrolled at the mouth as in N. elegans. (N. elegans has a distinct corona that is broader at the base than at the mouth, giving it a volcano crater type shape)
4.   N. serotinus has an obvious inflated floral tube. N. miniatus has a tube that gradually tapers.

Following this key I do not know what species is growing on the Balearic Islands, it fits with most points of this description but normally every bulb only produce one scape with one flower, rarly you can find a plant with two or three flowers. Even in cultivation in best conditions one flower is the rule. Leaves do not appear on flowering bulbs. (pictured in reply #40 as N. obsoletus)

N. elegans is listed for Mallorca and Ibiza. http://herbarivirtual.uib.es/eng-med/especie/4909.html
bulbgrower on the balearic islands, spain
landscape architect

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Rafa

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2012, 12:22:05 AM »
Hans, the plants you grow are N. obsoletus/deficiens/miniatus, all the characters mentioned are normal in the variability of this species. Recently in SRGC, a member pictured a plant with one meter long leaf, and I think this is as well an adaptation to the particular conditions there. N. elegans is easy to recognize from N. obsoletus, as it is a vigorous plant comparing N. obsoletus, it is glaucous, it has 2 erect leaves per bulb, many vegetative division and several flowers with a dark orange corona with out segments, like a cup.

The plants in the link seems N. obsoletus x N. elegans, but definitively not N. elegans. Sorry I have not better picture of N. elegans corona :-\

ezeiza

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #59 on: January 16, 2012, 04:26:42 AM »
The kind of field experience that Rafa has been acquiring over the years is not easy to achieve. I listen very carefully to his conclusions for he has been seeing lots of populations and their antural variants and it is to be expected that he is slowly buidling hos own system. Seeing the way DNA work is being done (necessarily very patchy and limited in material) it will take many years before a valid conclusion is reached. One thing is certain: Rafa's field work is unique in its scope and extent. Most often that same work is done within herbarium walls.