Narcissus

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HansA

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2011, 01:50:42 PM »
Beautiful plants, Miriam!

Here one of my favourite Narcissus is flowering: Narcissus viridiflorus
bulbgrower on the balearic islands, spain
landscape architect

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Alisdair

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2011, 02:45:45 PM »
Beautiful, Hans (and appetite-whetting - I think I have a pot of seedlings coming on); thanks for sharing!
Alisdair Aird
Gardens in SE England (Sussex); also coastal Southern Greece, and (in a very small way) South West France; MGS member (and former president); vice chairman RHS Lily Group, past chairman Cyclamen Society

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Miriam

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2011, 10:42:34 PM »
Wonderful Hans!

Narcissus x alleniae is in flower here.
muchas gracias Rafa!
agronomist from Rehovot, Israel

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Alisdair

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2011, 07:49:41 AM »
Fascinating to see this rare and only recently described natural hybrid, Miriam: wonderful, thanks!
In the wild, whereabouts in the distribution of its N. viridiflora parent is it found, on the Algeciras side of the Straits of Gibraltar, or on the Moroccan side?
Alisdair Aird
Gardens in SE England (Sussex); also coastal Southern Greece, and (in a very small way) South West France; MGS member (and former president); vice chairman RHS Lily Group, past chairman Cyclamen Society

Daisy

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2011, 10:02:55 AM »
I have just gone outside to take a couple of photos. This is my Narcissus Ziva, planted mid October.
Some plants just can't wait to show off!
Daisy :)



Amateur gardener, who has gardened in Surrey and Cornwall, England, but now has a tiny garden facing north west, near the coast in north east Crete. It is 300 meters above sea level. On a steep learning curve!!! Member of both MGS and RHS

Daisy

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2011, 05:14:16 PM »
Sorry. I meant to say mid September. ???
Daisy :)
Amateur gardener, who has gardened in Surrey and Cornwall, England, but now has a tiny garden facing north west, near the coast in north east Crete. It is 300 meters above sea level. On a steep learning curve!!! Member of both MGS and RHS

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Rafa

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2011, 10:49:35 PM »
Wow! very well done guys, my clones are behaving like southern hemisphere plants, they are still in dormancy!

Narcissus x alleniae is not actually new, it is a well know hybrid since Rutherford mentioned it in 1971 in The Daffodil and Tulip Year Book and also it was illustrated 1970 in the same publication. Donnison Morgan only validate it, but It was described by Rutherford.

Since Narcissus serotinus L. in fact contains two species: N. obsoletus Haworth (Steudel) (in Mediterranean countries) and Narcissus serotinus L. (in North East Morocco, South East Spain and South Portugal), it might be neccesary to rename both hybrids:

Narcissus viridiflorus Schoub. x Narcissus obsoletus Haworth (Steudel). I would suggest N. x rutherfordii
Narcissus viridiflorus Schoub. x Narcissus serotinus L. This hybrid is only possible in Morocco.

Narcissus viridiflorus grows in Cadiz (Spain) and North Morocco. In Spain is a protected species, but many of its inhabits are being distroying by golf camps and illegal developpments.

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Alisdair

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2011, 08:24:05 AM »
Thanks very much for that, Rafa.
Can you clear up a couple of further points for us?
1. Should we be using the name N. obsoletus instead of N. serotinus for "N. serotinus" whenever it occurs in Europe apart from SE Spain and S Portugal?
2. Does the hybrid with N. viridiflorus crop up in both the Cadiz area and Morocco?
Alisdair Aird
Gardens in SE England (Sussex); also coastal Southern Greece, and (in a very small way) South West France; MGS member (and former president); vice chairman RHS Lily Group, past chairman Cyclamen Society

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Rafa

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2011, 09:14:54 AM »
1. Personally I support always the older name, because is the legitime. Many botanist described Narcissus miniatus before, under other names and it seems Haworth is the older. But all these names were not accepted considering it was in fact Narcissus serotinus L. somthing really not incredible because they are completely different geografically, anatomicaly and genetically.
Everybody can support the name he considered more legitime, but N. miniatus is the newest from a log list of names.

Narcissus serotiuns L. in Europe only grows in Portugal (Algarve) and Spain (Huelva, Sevilla, Cáceres and Badajoz).

If you want to recognize both species, I would think:

Mediterranean element--> N. obsoletus
Atlantic element--> N. serotinus

Orange corona--> Narcissus obsoletus
Yellow corona--> Narcissus serotinus

With a leave when blooms or not-->N. obsoletus
Without leave when blooms---> N. serotinus

One or several flowers per scape---> N. obsoletus
One flower (rarely two) flowers per scape-->N. serotinus

Perianth tube without segments, narrow--> N. obsoletus
Perianth tube with segments, like a wine bottle---> N. serotinus

Genetically, they are also different and some authors suggest Narcissus obsoletus has a hybrid origin,it would be a successful hybrid between N. elegans and N. serotinus. The sterile hybrid was also called N. x obsoletus and more recently N. x perangustus.

It is also interesting to say Narcissus obsoletus has much variability:
Greenish tepals (called var. fallax)
Narrow tepals (var. oxypetalus)
Peach tepals (collected by K.G.N)

And also another variety var. intermedia, that some people considered as an hybrid between N. serotinus and N. obosletus. This is interesting to me, because I consider N. serotinus is uniflower, but there is a region between Cordoba and Sevilla where there are both species and intermediate plants.

2. Yes, the hybrid is in both countries, and there is probably an hybrid between N. serotinus L. and N. viridiflorus in Morocco, but not in Europe.

This year I would like to find N. viridiflorus x N. cavanillesii, but finally I couldn't visit Cadiz...



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Alisdair

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2011, 10:06:20 AM »
Terrific, Rafa, that's a really helpful guide! Thanks very much.
Alisdair Aird
Gardens in SE England (Sussex); also coastal Southern Greece, and (in a very small way) South West France; MGS member (and former president); vice chairman RHS Lily Group, past chairman Cyclamen Society

HansA

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2011, 12:40:19 PM »
Superb plant Miriam!

Can only agree with Alisdair! Rafa, your contribution is fantastic!

Here is an Narcissus I received together with a few more as N. serotinus - following your description it is clearly not but I also have doubts it is N.obsoletus as it has leaves which look something similar to N. elegans - both N. obsoletus and N.elegans I grow look very different...
bulbgrower on the balearic islands, spain
landscape architect

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Rafa

  • Newbie
Re: Narcissus
« Reply #41 on: November 19, 2011, 01:27:04 PM »
Magnific plants!, specially to me N. elegans.

have a look to the recent picrtures of autumn narcissi that my friend Joaquín Ramirez did last week
http://www.flickr.com/photos/naturalezadeandalucia/sets/72157607466185346/?page=5
http://www.flickr.com/photos/naturalezadeandalucia/sets/72157607466185346/?page=4

and also that lusus naturae, maybe a failed hybridation try between N x alleniae and N. x perez-larae.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/naturalezadeandalucia/6360176385/in/photostream

all the best,

Rafa.

Paul T.

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2011, 10:27:42 PM »
Wow Rafa.

There are some excellent pics in there.  Great details.
Cheers.

Paul T.
Canberra, Australia.
Min winter temp -8 or -9°C. Max summer temp 40°C. Thankfully, maybe once or twice a year only.

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Rafa

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2011, 11:54:46 PM »
The Narcissus elegans is just magnific! 19 flowers per scape!! and this is totaly new character to this species that only happen in Peninsula Iberica locality.
 

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MikeHardman

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Re: Narcissus
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2011, 10:08:02 PM »
Rafa - I, too, am very thankful for your posts here.


The ones I have seen in Cyprus (on the Akamas Peninsula, 22oct07, attached) seem to key out as N. obsoletus, but not by ticking all the boxes.

To annotate your list of dignostic characters:

Mediterranean element--> Narcissus obsoletus
Atlantic element--> N. serotinus
--> Cyprus --> N. o.

Orange corona--> Narcissus obsoletus
Yellow corona--> Narcissus serotinus
--> mine looks like a darkish yellow, not orange --> N. s.

With a leave when blooms or not-->N. obsoletus
Without leave when blooms---> N. serotinus
--> mine have flowers but no leaves --> N. s.
(the leaf-like shoot in photo 1 may be flower stems where the flowers have been eaten-off, or non-flowering plants)

One or several flowers per scape---> N. obsoletus
One flower (rarely two) flowers per scape-->N. serotinus
--> one flower per scape --> N. o.

Perianth tube without segments, narrow--> N. obsoletus
Perianth tube with segments, like a wine bottle---> N. serotinus
--> narrow tube --> N. o.

Note also the difference in width of the petals. The plants were only a few hundered metres apart.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 10:17:09 PM by MikeHardman »
Mike
Geologist by Uni training, IT consultant, Referee for Viola for Botanical Society of the British Isles, commissioned author and photographer on Viola for RHS (Enc. of Perennials, The Garden, The Plantsman).
I garden near Polis, Cyprus, 100m alt., on marl, but have gardened mainly in S.England