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Viola (including pansies)

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MikeHardman

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Re: Viola (including pansies)
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2012, 03:49:46 PM »
Thanks John.
The stipules confirm it as V. elegantula.
It is lovely.
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Mike
Geologist by Uni training, IT consultant, Referee for Viola for Botanical Society of the British Isles, commissioned author and photographer on Viola for RHS (Enc. of Perennials, The Garden, The Plantsman).
I garden near Polis, Cyprus, 100m alt., on marl, but have gardened mainly in S.England
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John

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Re: Viola (including pansies)
« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2012, 06:10:43 PM »
Thank you. Too!
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John
Horticulturist, photographer, author, garden designer and plant breeder; MGS member and RHS committee member. I garden at home in SW London and also at work in South London.
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MikeHardman

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Viola ident. - provisionally V. riviniana (awaiting comment from T. Marcussen)
« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2012, 04:52:48 PM »
Regarding identification of the other photo/plant in Jorun's posting of 5dec12...


The plant captioned Viola collina on this page
http://botanika.prf.jcu.cz/materials/fotogalerie-nahledy.php?family=Violaceae&name=Rosidae
looks very similar to the MGS forum plant; I would say it is the same species.
But, unfortunately, that is not Viola collina.
The same page also features a plant captioned Viola riviniana; also matching the MGS forum plant. But the plant in that photo has petals that are too narrow for V. r..

It is almost definitely one of the caulescent rosulate species (forming rosettes of leaves plus foliar non-stoloniferous stems), examples being Viola riviniana, reichenbachiana.
It is not V. reichenbachiana (that has a dark spur).
It is not V. riviniana (that has broader petals) - or at least not typical V. r. ...

It is superficially similar to V. sieheana, which I know from Cyprus.
Have a look at V. sieheana in Marijn van den Brink's photos from NE Turkey -
http://photos.v-d-brink.eu/search/?searchWordsShort=viola+sieheana&searchType=InAlbum&AlbumID=10572637&x=0&y=0 - similar, but with purplish spurs, not white.
Yiannis Christofides has a typically excellent photo of it here - http://www.treknature.com/gallery/Middle_East/Cyprus/photo256315.htm. The lateral petals are more heavily bearded and the petals broader than the MGS forum plant. Petal broadness/overlapping is known to be variable in this species.
Thomas Marcussen (relatively recent research) considers V. sieheana to be within V. riviniana.
...In which case, the plant from Montenegro might, after all, come under V. riviniana, in a broad sense.

Thomas wrote a useful paper:
"Species delimitation in the Ponto-Caucasian Viola sieheana complex, based on evidence from allozymes, morphology, ploidy levels, and crossing experiments"
Plant Systematics & Evolution; Feb2011, Vol. 291 Issue 3/4, p183.
http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/58001744/species-delimitation-ponto-caucasian-viola-sieheana-complex-based-evidence-from-allozymes-morphology-ploidy-levels-crossing-experiments
That includes NW Greece (Pinhos Mts.) in the range of V. sieheana sensu stricto - which is getting close to western Montenegro...
And in fact Wilhelm Becker (one of the great students and publishers of Viola), 1910, p.55, mentions some sites for it in Bosnia, Serbia, and Montenegro.
Thomas also shows that V. sieheana hybridizes with similar species.
The big problem with V. sieheana is the stipules. The ones on the MGS forum photo, even though not well shown, are much too small. I have to rule it out.

Considering other candidate species:
- V. dirphya occurs in Greece (endemic), not too far away, but its petals are consistently oval, unlike the MGS forum plant. (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7n7qoWr2hv0/S-r43YhLV2I/AAAAAAAAKcM/y2CMa6kiRL8/s1600/Viola+dirphya+tiniakou.JPG)
The similar V. caspia is too far away (eg. Azerbaijan) from Montenegro to come into consideration.
- V. chelmea occurs in Montenegro and nearby, but flowers and foliage are wrong. The two sspp. were previously included in V. sieheana.
- V. rupestris occurs nearby, but foliage, etc. is wrong.
- V. mirabilis occurs in Bosnia, but wrong leaf shape.
- V. jordani, pumila, etc. are wrong re stipules, and other features; shame in a way because some of those have the necessary pale blue flowers.
- V. reichenbachiana occurs in Montenegro, and has a pale blue form (f. pallida), but other aspects of the flower don't match, eg. dark spur.
- V. oligyrtia is endemic to Greece, and not quite right (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=3329.180)

In summary,
I am of the opinion that the plant is Viola riviniana, though it is a form with which I am not familiar.
As far as I can tell from the photo, the essential characteristics (many of which, such as petal venation, I have not mentioned here) are correct.
The narrowness of the petals may be a regional character, as may their paleness. That's based not just on this one plant, but on the similarity the plant to this one
http://botanika.prf.jcu.cz/materials/fotogalerie-nahledy.php?family=Violaceae&name=Rosidae (scroll down to the V. riviniana photo).
If it is a known forma/varietas, I have not discovered its diagnosis or supporting photographs.
I will email Thomas for his opinion.

Update, 25dec12:
I have discussed this with Thomas.
He cannot give a certain identification either, but leans towards V. sieheana (which would make your plant/observation in Montenegro an extension of its range, Jorun).
He says that the stipules of V. sieheana are very variable - making my comment about large stipules (above) invalid. Also, he uses the presence of a seed pod in your photo to rule out a hybrid (a bit prematurely, in my opinion: seed pods sometimes form but contain empty seeds).
Thomas points out that it would be useful to know the hairiness of the plant: V. sieheana is almost glabrous, whereas V. riviniana and reichenbachiana have hairs of ~1mm on the upper leaf surface.
Result: uncertain, but either V. riviniana or sieheana.


Refs:
Becker, W., 1910, 'Violae europaeae. Systematische Bearbeitung der Violen Europas und seiner benachbarten Gebiete'.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 01:17:14 PM by MikeHardman »
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Mike
Geologist by Uni training, IT consultant, Referee for Viola for Botanical Society of the British Isles, commissioned author and photographer on Viola for RHS (Enc. of Perennials, The Garden, The Plantsman).
I garden near Polis, Cyprus, 100m alt., on marl, but have gardened mainly in S.England
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JTh

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Re: Viola (including pansies)
« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2012, 05:37:05 PM »
Mike, do you mean the photo of the very pale blue viola I sent on 5 Dec.?
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Retired veterinary surgeon by training with a PhD in parasitology,  but worked as a virologist since 1992.
Member of the MGS  since 2004. Gardening in Oslo and to a limited extent in Halkidiki, Greece.
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MikeHardman

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Re: Viola (including pansies)
« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2012, 07:09:24 PM »
yes
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Mike
Geologist by Uni training, IT consultant, Referee for Viola for Botanical Society of the British Isles, commissioned author and photographer on Viola for RHS (Enc. of Perennials, The Garden, The Plantsman).
I garden near Polis, Cyprus, 100m alt., on marl, but have gardened mainly in S.England
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JTh

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Re: Viola (including pansies)
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2012, 10:04:12 PM »
Thank you, that was a lot trouble for such a small plant, but I am very grateful. (I am not John, though, wrong gender, Jorun is a female name.)
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Retired veterinary surgeon by training with a PhD in parasitology,  but worked as a virologist since 1992.
Member of the MGS  since 2004. Gardening in Oslo and to a limited extent in Halkidiki, Greece.
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MikeHardman

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Re: Viola (including pansies)
« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2012, 07:46:38 AM »
Jorun - slip of the brain - I have corrected my post re John/Jorun - sorry about that - Mike
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Mike
Geologist by Uni training, IT consultant, Referee for Viola for Botanical Society of the British Isles, commissioned author and photographer on Viola for RHS (Enc. of Perennials, The Garden, The Plantsman).
I garden near Polis, Cyprus, 100m alt., on marl, but have gardened mainly in S.England
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JTh

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Re: Viola (including pansies)
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2012, 10:18:11 AM »
No problem, I just wanted to make sure that all your hard work was not wasted because I couldn't connect the name you gave with the correct plant.
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Retired veterinary surgeon by training with a PhD in parasitology,  but worked as a virologist since 1992.
Member of the MGS  since 2004. Gardening in Oslo and to a limited extent in Halkidiki, Greece.

helenaviolet

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Re: Viola (including pansies)
« Reply #68 on: December 12, 2012, 01:56:30 PM »
A little treasure here to brighten up the day. Thanks to a generous friend who gave me seeds of  Viola stojanowii (which germinated well) the first little flowers have just appeared.  :)
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I live in Central Victoria, Australia. This is very much a "Mediterranean" climate with long hot summers and cold frosty winters. Citrus grows well here. I am interested in species and cultivars of Viola which will grow in this climate.
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JTh

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Re: Viola (including pansies)
« Reply #69 on: December 12, 2012, 02:20:35 PM »
A real beauty!
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Retired veterinary surgeon by training with a PhD in parasitology,  but worked as a virologist since 1992.
Member of the MGS  since 2004. Gardening in Oslo and to a limited extent in Halkidiki, Greece.
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MikeHardman

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Re: Viola (including pansies)
« Reply #70 on: December 23, 2012, 10:20:04 AM »
Lovely, Helena.
Always a nice reward to have your first flower on a tenderly nurtured plant.
...Well almost always: I guess most of us have experienced instances of disappointment when it turn out not to be what we expected.
And thanks for bring it 'closer' to us (it is smaller than many a wild pansy).
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Mike
Geologist by Uni training, IT consultant, Referee for Viola for Botanical Society of the British Isles, commissioned author and photographer on Viola for RHS (Enc. of Perennials, The Garden, The Plantsman).
I garden near Polis, Cyprus, 100m alt., on marl, but have gardened mainly in S.England
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MikeHardman

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Re: Viola (including pansies)
« Reply #71 on: December 25, 2012, 01:19:01 PM »
Jorun,
Re your photo of V. riviniana/sieheana in Montenegro:
I have edited my posting "Reply #62 on: 10 December 2012, 15:52:48". Please see 'Update 25dec12' near the end.
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Mike
Geologist by Uni training, IT consultant, Referee for Viola for Botanical Society of the British Isles, commissioned author and photographer on Viola for RHS (Enc. of Perennials, The Garden, The Plantsman).
I garden near Polis, Cyprus, 100m alt., on marl, but have gardened mainly in S.England
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JTh

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Re: Viola (including pansies)
« Reply #72 on: December 25, 2012, 02:29:45 PM »
Interesting, Mike. I have tried to look a closer look at the leaves, they seem to be rather glabrous, but I didn't specifically focus on the leaves when the photos were taken, so the details are not that clear. Some of the stipules seem rather long (and narrow) to me, but many are short and spiky. At least one of the seed capsules seems to be well develloped.

It seems as if this location is a bit further west than the normal distribution of V. sieheana, I guess it is difficult to say for sure that it is definitely the one species or the other, but I have learnt a lot, thank you!
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Retired veterinary surgeon by training with a PhD in parasitology,  but worked as a virologist since 1992.
Member of the MGS  since 2004. Gardening in Oslo and to a limited extent in Halkidiki, Greece.
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MikeHardman

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Re: Viola (including pansies)
« Reply #73 on: December 26, 2012, 02:47:39 PM »
So, it will remain ambiguous at least until somebody goes and takes a closer look. Such is life.

I, too, learned a few things during research concerning that question.
In general, however, I wonder whether my rate of learning still exceeds my rate of forgetting! :(
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Mike
Geologist by Uni training, IT consultant, Referee for Viola for Botanical Society of the British Isles, commissioned author and photographer on Viola for RHS (Enc. of Perennials, The Garden, The Plantsman).
I garden near Polis, Cyprus, 100m alt., on marl, but have gardened mainly in S.England

helenaviolet

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Re: Viola (including pansies)
« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2013, 11:28:27 PM »
Just a little update on Viola stojanowii which is still flowering and growing well in our hot Australian summer; temperatures reaching 40c. Also it is setting seed. Here is a pic of the first pod about to burst!
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I live in Central Victoria, Australia. This is very much a "Mediterranean" climate with long hot summers and cold frosty winters. Citrus grows well here. I am interested in species and cultivars of Viola which will grow in this climate.
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