[Trevor Australis]

Montana taverna, eh? Sounds like the whole situation calls for just that: a tavern in the mountains and a nice long sit down with a glass of crisp white wine.  tn

And Yes we have all those problems too despite a national nursery industry that says it is dedicated to quality service inc accurately and properly named plants. Ah, well at least it's better than in Sth America - no labels, plenty of weeds, garden soil used instead of soil-less potting mix - more weeds and seeds + grubs and bugs. no PVR paid, plants deliberately mis-labelled to avoid the suggestion of liability, and plenty of plant smuggling, except in Chile where the export trade is hugely important.

[Umbrian]

Despite our desire for well and accurately labelled plants I found an article that I read in the Daily Telegraph today quite disturbing.Apparently there are plans to ensure through legislation (EU Bureaucrats at it again) for it to be mandatory for all plant varieties to be labelled with a detailed description that is both legally and botanically precise. Originally this was to safeguard the right of plant breeders who introduced a new selection but could now be extended to all plants at great expense to all concerned when you consider the implications of the word "legally" However much we might welcome better plant labelling do we, as the article points out at the end, want "a future world of Eurocrat approved garden plants" something it describes as "a bleak prospect"
Comments please....I think we have some plant breeders on the Forum and then there are all of us who are just customers.......

[David Bracey]

Rosie Peddle BH in Spain is circulating an email asking members etc to sign an attached petition requesting  MEP s and legislators etc to think twice about this new law. Suggest you contact Rosie.

[pamela]

Carole, I am in two minds about this.  I am not in favour of expensive burdensome regulations in the EU (and I can tell you I DO know about the daft and very costly EU regulations required in our own business in London)!

However, I am fed up with the way garden centres here in Spain get away with putting virtually nothing on the label e.g.  Rosal, salvia, lavanda,  stating the very obvious but without varieties and certainly no binomial nomenclature.  As well, often it is the Spanish or Valencian local name and that can vary between establishments.

I have found it hugely frustrating and it is a sheer pleasure for me to visit an enlightened plant centre where I can see names that are universal.

[JTh]

It's amazing what you may find even here in Norway. It is - 11 ^oC outside today, not exactly Mediterranean, but I have a Clerodendrum ugandese on my window sill. It was properly named, but no information about climatic requirements, it was sold as an outdoor plant.

I hope I will be able to keep it alive until next spring, then bring it to Greece.

[Fermi]

There's been a lot of discussion on the Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum about this issue http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10845.15
cheers
fermi

[MikeHardman]

The RHS journal 'The Garden', Nov13 p.8 mentions the EU 'plant reproductive material' registration and description proposed legislation, which includes a link to the legislation itself - http://tinyurl.com/cdnd2kc.

The article points out that a stakeholder group, including the RHS, HTA, NFU and seed companies is providing DEFRA with information to present the UK's case to the EU. They want ornamentals removed from the legislation, or failing that recommending a number of changes.

[MikeHardman]

Update:
The EU is listening, and may slacken its proposed legislation for ornamentals.
It may replace 'officially recognized description' with 'commonly known', which has been used before but would now have a more precise definition.
This is just an amendment under discussion at the moment. Negotiation on the legislation are scheduled to begin early in 2014. Meanwhile the stakeholder group stated there is a need to continue to raise the issue with MEPs.

[The RHS journal 'The Garden', Dec13  p.8]

[MikeHardman]

Just to add to the issue...

The RHS journal 'The Garden', Dec13 p.9 points out that some Aster will move to new genera, based on DNA and non-DNA data. The new names will appear in the 2015 edition of The RHS Plant Finder.
They're already in use in the USA, and have been ranted over for some years
- http://gardenrant.com/2008/08/you-say-aster-i.html

Some of the new(ish) genera:
- Symphiotrichum (Michaelmas daisies)
- Eurybia
- Ampelaster
(I state them here so future searches of this forum may get a hit.)

Full list of genera in Astereae - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astereae

If you want the scientific nitty-gritty on this stuff (though still going only as deep as genera) , don your anorak and head over to the Angiosperm Phylogeny Group at
http://www.mobot.org/MOBOT/research/APweb/welcome.html

Mike

[John J]

In the Comments section of the January issue of the RHS magazine, The Garden, a member from Essex has raised the question of plant labeling. She feels that plant suppliers should provide more information with the plants they sell. She cites as examples, whether a plant will die back in winter, or will it need support when in flower. She also goes on to complain that seed packets do not provide detailed enough instructions as to how to germinate and grow on the seed enclosed, and that the little diagrams employed by most companies are totally inadequate for purpose. She goes on to suggest that all plants should have a waterproof pocket containing an information leaflet attached to their pot. Possibly this may be one solution in an ideal world but, personally, I see a few problems with it. For one thing the costs; of producing such leaflets; purchasing thousands of waterproof pockets; the extra hours of labour involved in attaching them to individual plants; would need to be passed on to the customers resulting in higher overall prices for the plants. The RHS ends the piece by asking what information members feel should be supplied with plants and seeds. Could I echo that and ask what Forum members think about this subject?

[MikeHardman]

John,

Somewhat obviously, I think it has to be a compromise.

A. At one extreme, one could argue for:
- a picture
- a common name
- a botanical name
- number of seeds in the packet
- synonyms
- full description, including year-round appearance
- dimensions
- soil, temperature/hardiness, light and other cultural preferences
- pests & disease issues
- toxicity
- longevity of the seeds
- provenance
- advised seed storage conditions
- health benefits, Calories(!), feng shui...
- insect attractance (eg. for butterflies/bees) / repellance (eg. for mosquitoes)
- photogenic qualities
- literature references
- etc. (and facts blur with opinion at some point)
- and all that in every language under the sun
Of course, that would require either a huge packet, impossible small text (more complaints), or a folded leaflet

B. At the other extreme:
- a picture
- a common name
- a botanical name
- number of seeds in the packet

Personally, I'd settle for B.
...Providing the botanical name is correct - because that would enable me to get all the other info (A) and more.
If I had internet access (eg. through a mobile data plan), that info could be available at the point of sale
But for too many folks, that would not be the case: they would be deprived of data at the point of sale and therefore compromised in the ability to make a well-informed buying decision.

However, there do seem to be logical alternatives...
For instance: B. + barcode, with the ability to look-up that barcode and get detailed info:
- in a book at the point of sale
- on the vendor's web site, where details would be available
The two could be combined if a kiosk terminal was provided, so the customer could swipe a packet of seeds and read about it on screen, in their language of choice. Perhaps too expensive, yes. It would be more cost effective if the system could also handle barcodes/info on potted plants.

It will always be difficult for vendors to find a compromise that suits all customers.
They have already tried to do that in using symbols - which save space and are multilingual.
I wish them good luck.
Meanwhile, the best things they can do are:
1. make sure the botanical names are correct (even if they are synonyms; we can't expect printed data to remain correct)
2. provide a modicum of information, as they do now
3. provide an ID (such as a barcode) to enable customers to get info on the specific seeds/packaging, eg. provenance, storage.

[David Bracey]

I think you are speaking with your English hats on.  The industry here in the South of France, let alone Greece etc is much less sophisticated, both at the buyer and seller level.  The best you can hope for is the local and Latin names..

However i do agree that in this day and age the industry should be going digital with barcodes and readers at the point of sale etc.  But maybe that,s asking too much.

This is another area where the MGS could be forging the way with discussion and leadership.

[KatG]

I think David is right. Here in Greece I suspect there is very little demand for so much information. I suspect 95% of customers wouldn't know what to do with a Latin name, let alone any other information. They rely on the nursery owner for advice. Having talked to nursery owners in my area it is clear that most locals buy whatever is in flower and attracts their eye, and ornamental gardens are still a bit of an indulgence. The nurseries here are struggling to survive on a skeleton staff, and labelling comes pretty low on there list of priorities. Of course with no serious labelling, even if one has some plant knowledge, the only way to be sure of the colour is to buy when in flower, particularly with plants like Oleander where there are so many options, but I get the distinct impression that worrying about colour is considered an eccentricity. Having said that, there is definitely more choice and more labelling - albeit very basic - than there was when I first moved here. The big problem with labelling here is that it doesn't last - it fades in no time and becomes illegible. Change is gonna come - slowly.

[JTh]

I agree with David, Mike’s list A sounds nice,, but it is far from what is realistically possible. List B is acceptable, except that for seeds I would also think that there should an expiration/best-before date.
Even here in Norway, some of the very large garden centres sell plants that not always properly named, quite often you are lucky if they give you the genus. Many of these plants seem to be mass-produced in the Netherlands, and I can’t understand why they can’t write the full name, with the variety included, it certainly does not cost more than writing a Dutch name that is not being used anywhere else, and I am sure the breeders know the plants they are mass propagating.

[John J]

I think we are all painfully aware of the current situation with regard to the existing limitations in plant labeling. It would seem that this is not a localized problem but is a widespread phenomenon affecting most areas in which members live and/or garden. As David suggests perhaps we should begin a campaign to attempt to improve on this. If so then we, as a Society (I'm speaking with my AC hat on now), need to decide just what is a realistically achievable goal. What information could we advise suppliers to include on their labels in order to make their products more attractive to buyers without incurring extra costs that would, inevitably, be passed on to customers, thus defeating the object of the exercise. For instance; Correct naming, using universally accepted scientific names; Ultimate height and spread; Perennial or annual; Flower colour; Soil preferences, acid/alkaline, moisture retentive/free draining; An easy to understand drought tolerance rating. The above are, of course, just a sample of what members may find important, there are undoubtedly many more that could be added. What would you like to see on plant labels, remembering to stay within the bounds of what is realistically possible?