[HansA]

Think most Cyclamen will last some frost, but C. rohlfsianum seems to be extremly sensitive. A few years ago we had one or two nights with temperatures between         -1ºC and 0ºC; the C.rohlfsianum lost all their leaves.

[John]

Alisdair. I disagree about this subject and would say I am not off topic here. I absolutely agree that in my book (literally) on Crete around 1600 m is the maximum limit for truly Mediterranean species (e.g. Gagea graeca) and way below this for most. Regarding my Cyclamen hederifolium frosted picture which prompted your “off topic” remark. Cyclamen hederifolium can be coastal or found way up into the mountains as can other species including C. graecum. Cyclamen hederifolium var.confusum which I believe is considered restricted to NW Crete is well within the Mediterranean and with me has so far proved totally hardy, at least down to -15ºC.
I am of the understanding that the evolution of plants in the Mediterranean occurred through very different periods of climate change some of which were much colder than today. Other periods also much wetter. What grows there now is a mix of plants with different origins, some of which are very cold tolerant and not just at altitude. I mentioned Ranunculus asiaticus previously for this reason because despite being relatively restricted to coastal and low altitudes it does show some cold tolerance including sub-zero temperatures, not admittedly great hardiness.
Another example with very variable results is Rosemarinus officinalis. In the UK it is a commonly grown Mediterranean shrub which I would assume most people would agree is a perfectly acceptable Mediterranean plant. Some clones are very hardy varying to not even frost tolerant. I once grew a totally pendulous form that I collected seed from on the Amalfi coast in Italy which I grew in a hanging basket for many years, frost free. All of the attempts from propagated material were killed instantly with any sub-zero temperature.
There is a long list of such plants including truly Mediterranean that are mentioned in “The Dry Gardening Handbook” by Olivier Filippi. In this book cold tolerance is a major feature. His nursery is a Mecca for Mediterranean gardeners including many members of our society. I should also mention that to members like our Umbrian Carole hardiness is quite a relevant topic.
This leads me back to water wise gardening where I should continue this under that subject!

[Alisdair]

John, I didn't mean at all that you were off topic, as you were and are very solidly on topic! I was just apologising for my own thoughts, which in the context of the Cyclamen topic were rather off topic: I was slapping my own wrist, not yours...

[John]

OK, understood and sorry if I over did my reply but I decided to bring in the hardiness issue. I think it's obvious that the boundaries for the mediterranean climate are blurred by many different aspects depending upon how you approach it.

[oron peri]

Autumn is arriving down here as well,
Here are the first blooms.
I have a new introduction of a very dark form of a cross done between my darkest C. confusum and C. africanum.
And one for Hans

[HansA]

Superb plants, Oron!
Thanks for sharing the pics!

[oron peri]

Thanks Hans,
Some more today mainly a mix of C. africanum, C. hederifolium and hybrids.

[John]

With a few of my dark flowered straight C. hederifolium I have been trying to hybridise to produce a dark flowered silver leaf but last week at the RHS show in Westminster I purchased this plant which is pretty much there already. I have been fooled by this before and found that a purchased dark flowered plant has subsequently produced paler flowers! We''l have to wait and see!

[Fleur Pavlidis]

How can that be? Are they dyed?

[John]

No, it is possibly cultivation or some other factor but they don't have the intensity they had. It could be compost and feed but it will still come out dark just not as intense. The plants I have been working with have stayed dark to date. I merely mentioned that this one may not as it is a strain unknown to me!

[jo]

Autumn is arriving down here as well,
Here are the first blooms.
I have a new introduction of a very dark form of a cross done between my darkest C. confusum and C. africanum.
And one for Hans

Hi Oron,    did you make the cross between africanum and confusum or is it a chance cross ?    I ask because I visited Tilebarn last week and Peter was saying that confusum doesn't cross with hederifolium. I thought ' great ' I don't need to islolate them.  But do I need to keep confusum separate from africanum ?

[oron peri]

Hey Jo, glad to see you here!!!

I have cross polinated the two, but unfortunately i can not isolate the plants in the small area i have.
and so i can not exclude the possibility that hederifolium is involved too.
But if you look carfuly on the flower form of the 2ed type, there is definatly africanum blood to it,
and the robustness is of C. confusum.

[John]

Without the time to check I assume that C. africanum is a polyploid species as is C. confusum. Does anyone know? If they do have the same chromosome count they might well be interfertile. In Crete where C. confusum grows it has been shown that other nearby populations (in the same valley) are allegedly C. hederifolium. It would make sense that they are incompatible if they can grow in together the same habitat. At a guess it is quite likely that C. confusum evolved in situ from a genetic mutation.
One problem with this is that it has also been said that many of the forms of C. africanum in cultivation are actually hybrids with C. hederifolium! Though it is also possible that C. hederifolium var. crassifolium may be involved here which again me be due to chromosome differences!!!!!!
C. graecum has supposed to have produced hybrids with C. hederifolium which may be possible with material unknown to me. I have certainly never seen a hybrid despite having grown them together for over 40 years and grown quite a lot of seed from them.

[jo]

Hi Oron,    I've got lots of pics from Israel, I should get on and post a few.  Thanks again for your leadership, we had such a fantastic trip  I wish we had your climate, I've worn wellie boots almost continually since.

Hi John,  looking up chromosomes for hederifolium in the most recent C G-W monograph he says that it was originally thought to be a stable diploid,  2n=34,   then when wild populations were studied on the Greek islands a polyploid 2n=68 population was identified.

 Presumably that is C confusum, because this book was published before confusum was given specific status ?

But also C africanum occurs as both 2n=34 and 2n=68,  the same as hederifolium.

So would the 2n=34 hed cross with the 2n=34 africanum,  and ditto for the 2n=64 pair


I agree that graecum and hederifolium do not hybridise when grown close together so was the occurence of X Whiteae a really lucky forced cross, it was deliberate according to the book,  but has anyone done it again ?      The plants of X Whiteae are quite distinctive.


cheers,  Jo

[jo]

looking at your pictures of the beautiful dark confusum x africanum again Oron it would be really interesting to see the leaves when they come through, presumably they have they same ascending leaf stalks of the parents, thick and shiny as well ?