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Plants for mediterranean gardens => Perennials => Topic started by: Alice on March 12, 2012, 02:33:30 PM

Title: Ebenus cretica cultivation and propagation
Post by: Alice on March 12, 2012, 02:33:30 PM
My question relates to Ebenus cretica in particular but also more generally to summer watering of certain plants (e.g. oaks) in the drier parts of the Mediterranean.
I have had conflicting advice, with most gardeners (with experience in the wetter Western Mediterranean, perhaps?) suggesting that this practice would kill the plants. However, can a young plant survive 5-6 months of drought without any water at all?
In other words, is there an East/West divide when it comes to watering schedules?
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: John on March 12, 2012, 08:58:20 PM
Hello Alice,
I would say that you shouldn't water Ebenus creticus during the summer but that it should have had chance to establish itself through the winter before. It has a very deep searching tap root which allows it to survive in rock crevices in the wild. This is one of the reasons it can be difficult to grow well in a pot and then transplant so I would certainly suggest starting with a very small seedling or even sowing it in situ if it is intended for a rock crevice.
The one plant I managed to grow here in London survived on a rockery for about 2 years but was very unhappy and faded away. Wrong climate. Perhaps too wet in summer or perhaps too cold in winter, or both!
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: Alisdair on March 12, 2012, 10:56:29 PM
My own rather sad experience of this lovely plant bears out what John says. I was given a good-sized specimen in a two-litre pot, which I planted out in the autumn in our hot Greek garden. It did not survive the following (unwatered) summer, and I now believe that that was probably because it was already too old and established, in its pot, to be able to plunge its roots down in that first winter in the way that a younger plant might have been. So I'm trying now to raise some Ebenus cretica from seed, in the hope of planting them out very young in the late autumn.
Generally, with other plants, we try to give them a monthly deep watering in their first summer, then leave them. As our Mani summers are long and hot, usually with virtually no rain from May to October and sometimes even longer, we have to accept that some plants simply don't survive. You have to remember that with the native plants which do survive in the wild, for every seedling that is so luckily placed and so luckily treated by circumstances in its first winter that it has managed to get its roots down well and survives to become eventually a grand old plant, probably many hundreds less fortunately placed have perished in their first very few months or years. If we get a 50% or even 75% survival rate with our own plantings, we are almost certainly doing very much better than Nature!
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: Jill S on March 12, 2012, 11:26:42 PM
I agree wholeheartedly, plant small, plant well, use the watering hollow idea, use mulch,  keep the weeds away, plant in autumn (Paros does get a decent rainfall in winter), be prepared to water thoroughly at intervals during the first summer and if they survive their first year then they stand a good chance of making it. A 60% survival rate is doing really well, so be prepared to loose more than you would like, but remember most plants are worth it!!
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: John on March 12, 2012, 11:42:32 PM
If you can get hold of a quantity of seed do try sowing some in situ as I suggested. If you sow 50 seeds, say 5 in each location you may end up with ten plants or if more you can thin them or just leave them to get on with it and sort themselves out!
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: Umbrian on March 13, 2012, 07:25:38 AM
The advice given by JillS echoes my feelings for just about all planting when gardening in Mediterranean climate areas  especially if one is new to it and accustomed to gardening in a more temperate climate.
Alasdair's comments about success rates  in nature are also worth noting and should prevent us from getting too disheartened. I have been trying to establish Romneya coulteri here for quite some time feeling that it should be OK once established and having space for it to spread. In England I knew of a garden where it had to be curbed because it spread from the front garden into the street beyond. So far though I have had no luck but as I love it so much I am going to keep on trying! :( :) Any tips? Perhaps this should be a new topic Alasdair? :-\
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: JTh on March 13, 2012, 08:12:21 AM
Carol, there is already some info about cultivation of Romneya coultreri (under Perennials), see http://www.mgsforum.org/smf/index.php?topic=32.msg125#msg125 (http://www.mgsforum.org/smf/index.php?topic=32.msg125#msg125).
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: Fleur Pavlidis on March 14, 2012, 09:17:02 AM
Going back to the Ebenus, pictured below is a young plant which was given to me as a small specimen in autumn 2010. I watered it by hand during its only summer (2011) and as you can see it is doing very well. The older plant shown must be 7-8 years old and it was on the watering system when it was young.The bank where  it grows is watered but the Ebenus is off the system now. I had to chop out the centre to release it from a huge clump of grass two autumns ago, but it has come back without any problem.
In his book 'the Dry Garden Handbook", Olivier Filippi describes how he prepares the seeds before sowing (rubbing with sandpaper and swelling with boiling water) but even so he says germination is poor. At Sparoza Sally collects the self-sown seedlings which always pop up very close to the ancient mother plant. My mature plant is a seedling of this Ebenus planted in the 70s by Jacky Tyrwhitt.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: John on March 14, 2012, 09:51:21 AM
Regarding seed soaking. Filing the seed coat of Lathyrus odoratus (sweet pea) was something that I was told (many years ago) was necessary to get them to imbibe but I found that putting them in a cup with about 10mm of boiled water and leaving them to soak for about 48 hours got most of them to imbibe. This may be appropriate for a whole range of legumes.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: Alice on April 17, 2012, 12:04:06 PM
Many thanks to all who responded to my question about summer watering of Ebenus cretica.
The warning in O. Filippi's book "The Dry Gardening Handbook" that summer irrigation would kill it "as surely as a powerful dose of herbicide" was slightly worrying, yet I felt I could not abandon it to its fate for the first one or two summers, until it became well established.
It is good to know that watered E. cretica plants, grown in similar conditions to mine (not in London, that is!), are flourishing. Lovely, healthy plant, Fleur!
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: anita on April 17, 2012, 01:43:22 PM
I've no experience with Ebenus but in the drier climes of Southern Australia the agreed wisdom on many native and Med species concurs with the advice of Jill, Umbrian and Fleur. Plant young, rather than advanced plants, plant in autumn while the soil is warm, water at planting and later if the plant is getting stressed then water when stressed during the first summer. Then it's on its own. Anita
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - pollination?
Post by: Joanna Savage on July 26, 2012, 03:11:01 PM
Returning to the idiosyncracies of 'E.cretica', I am wondering if anyone knows the pollination mechanism. Last year, as a start, I was able to germinate only one seed of the ten harvested. This year I watched more carefully and was surprised to see very few pollinators active while next door Salvias and Achilleas were being bomarded by several different pollinators. So far I have collected about two litres of the fluffy flower heads and there is very little seed. Perhaps 'E.creticus' has its own particular Cretan pollinator. Written from Toscana.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: John on July 26, 2012, 03:55:19 PM
The last time I collected seed heads was in eastern Crete on the coast road and out of several dried inflorescence heads there were very few fertile seeds, maybe one or two per head.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: Joanna Savage on July 26, 2012, 04:28:20 PM
Thanks John, I'll keep trying to find seed, or to hope that some germinates on the ground of its own accord. In truth the plant suffers so much in our winter I might soon have to abandon my attempts to grow it. Joanna
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: John on July 26, 2012, 04:53:19 PM
When you do get seed in my experience it is very long lived even without any special storage methods. I am not sure if I used my hot water method the one time I germinated some but it's worth mentioning. With sweet pea seeds I used to chip them to get good germination with was tedious and time consuming. Then I tried an experiment by pouring just boiled water onto them in cups and leaving them to go cold. It was perhaps only about 15 mm deep but it did the trick. By the next day most had imbibed and went on to grow away well. I have a feeling that I did this with Ebenus but I can't honestly remember. If you ever have enough seed give a go.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica cultivation and propagation
Post by: Alice on July 27, 2012, 12:33:27 AM
Last year we had quite a few seeds from two of our Ebenus plants, so I am sure it is not a Cretan pollinator at work, though I have not noticed what creature frequents the flowers (will have to check in 2013). I don't know yet what the score is for this year.
I have also had success with the boiling water method - the seeds usually swell up overnight and germinate soon after. I have not tried this method on Ebenus seeds.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: John on July 27, 2012, 08:13:54 AM
I would suggest you try it if you have enough seeds or just on a few as an experiment.
As for pollinators for some reason I assume it is bees which I may have seen. In places in the east of Crete Ebenus creticus can dominate certain habitats and on flat open ground.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: Alisdair on July 27, 2012, 09:27:40 AM
An ISHS paper published in 2000 reported on a study of E. creticus pollination at the Heraklion Technological Educational Institute's farm. It concluded that natural pollination was by "bubblebees" - presumably bumblebees. When bees has free access to the plants, a high proportion of fertile seed was produced.
Interestingly, the study found that although self-pollination by wind or by hand shaking gave very few seeds, this was not because of self-incompatibility, but because it was not much good at getting pollen on to the stigma - when self pollen was placed on the stigma, seed was produced.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: John on July 27, 2012, 09:46:07 AM
Yes I would have said bumble bees I may even have a picture somewhere but finding it!
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: Alice on July 27, 2012, 09:50:31 AM
This is getting interesting - as far as we can remember we have never seen bumblebees on our land.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: Alice on July 27, 2012, 10:26:32 AM
A quick search on the internet has unearthed some information concerning the propagation of Ebenus cretica. According to some researchers, 70-90% of seeds germinated without scarification in a commercial potting mix. Fifty percent germinated within 13 to 25 days, and temperatures of 25-30C, the presence of light and a pH of about 6 (slightly acidic) favoured germination. They also tried cuttings. The best results were obtained by wounding the base of 12cm-long shoot-tip cuttings and dipping them in a solution of IBA (1H-indole-3-butyric acid), 600mg/l, for 16 hours.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: Alisdair on July 27, 2012, 02:42:35 PM
Off topic, but....
In our porch here in UK we had a robin nesting this spring. Now that the fledglings have all flown the nest, it's been taken over by "bubblebees", so the porch now has a small but presumably growing colony of Bombus terrestris....
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: John on July 27, 2012, 06:15:12 PM
My favourite is Bombus lapidarius.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: Alisdair on July 27, 2012, 06:45:09 PM
I didn't know you had a weakness for yellow facial hairs :D
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: David Bracey on July 29, 2012, 10:47:36 AM
What`s wrong with us bubblebees.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: Joanna Savage on July 30, 2012, 12:16:08 PM
Thanks to Alisdair and Alice for tracking down  facts about 'E.creticus' seed setting. Now, I don't actually know what a bumble bee looks like. We have a very large glossy black creature that looks as though it would be from the Hymenoptera. Could this be a bumble bee? I don't remember seeing it on the Ebenus but I am now looking forward to next year to watch more critically.

I did try tip cuttings with hormone rooting powder last autumn. The cuttings didn't finally die until about May this year. No roots formed.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: Alice on July 30, 2012, 12:29:51 PM
Joanna, the large black creatures could be carpenter bees (Xylocopa violacea). We have quite a few of them - black with a purple hue.
Pity about your Ebenus cuttings, though.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: Joanna Savage on September 11, 2012, 06:47:36 AM
On July 30, when I was lamenting about no seed setting on Ebenus cretica, Alice told me about Carpenter Bees. One of the neighbouring plants which had been bombarded by pollinating insects was a Dorycnium hirsutum, and a principal bombadier was the Carpenter Bee. Yesterday I was cutting back dead wood from the Dorycnium, thinking that the drought had taken its toll, when, at the base of the dying stems I came across individual great fat white larvae eating their heads off until they almost filled the interior of the stem. Maybe these are the other part of the circle of the lifecycle of Carpenters.
So my net result is no Ebenus seed, but the plant is responding well to the recent rain, plenty of Dorycnium seed seems to have been set, but the plant is finished.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica - summer watering?
Post by: Alice on September 29, 2012, 09:17:28 AM
We returned to our Paros garden recently to find all four of our Ebenus cretica plants dead. Fortunately they had set seed. My observations agree with yours, John - very few fertile seeds per flower head, perhaps 10%. I gave 10 seeds the boiling water treatment (put them in a cup, poured boiling water over them and let them soak overnight), then placed them with moist compost in small transparent plastic bags. At this point I had to leave unexpectedly but on my return less than a week later, six seeds had germinated and produced roots ranging from one to five cm long. I have potted them up and they are storming away.
So the following are probably important factors in their germination:
1. soaking in hot water
2. presence of light
3. freshness of seed (I suspect very important).
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica cultivation and propagation
Post by: Alisdair on September 29, 2012, 12:10:37 PM
I've changed the heading of this thread to give a better idea of what's in it now (was just "Ebenus cretica - summer watering?") - and I think it might be a good idea now to move it to the perennials section, as it's not really general cultivation.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica cultivation and propagation
Post by: John on September 30, 2012, 11:02:31 PM
Alice I don't think that the seeds have to be fresh, I had germination from poorly stored seed after a few years. Many legumes store well for long periods even without careful treatment.
Alisdair you suggest putting this into (herbaceous?) perennials but Ebenus creticus is a shrub.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica cultivation and propagation
Post by: Alice on October 01, 2012, 08:20:15 AM
Good to know, John. Thanks.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica cultivation and propagation
Post by: Fermi on December 21, 2012, 03:01:54 AM
Alice I don't think that the seeds have to be fresh, I had germination from poorly stored seed after a few years. Many legumes store well for long periods even without careful treatment.
We got some seed from Marcus harvey in Tasmania last year before going to Europe for 7 weeks; we returned home to a house where mice had taken up residence and one of the seed packets they devoured was the Ebenus! >:(
What was left was sown in a 7.5cm pot and topped with gravel - eventually 2 seedlings germinated but one rotted off in the winter.
The remaining one is still in its seedpot and I wonder if I should try planting it out now (summer) or leave it till the weather cools off.
Any advice would be appreciated,
cheers
fermi
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica cultivation and propagation
Post by: John on December 21, 2012, 09:02:15 AM
I assume it is dormant now even in its pot so I should wait so it can take off when you plant it as soon as the weather changes.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica cultivation and propagation
Post by: Fermi on January 06, 2013, 05:12:12 AM
Hi John,
actually it's still got green growth so I'm watering it very sparingly to keep it going (we just had 40oC 2 days ago and will be due for another scorcher this week!); I'll plant it out once the heat is over - only another 2 months!
I hope I can find a suitable place where it can remain un-watered in future summers! Perhaps amongst some spring bulbs?
cheers
fermi
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica cultivation and propagation
Post by: John on January 06, 2013, 10:10:50 AM
Well your'e nearly there now and as you only have the one you can't experiment so good luck!
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica cultivation and propagation
Post by: Joanna Savage on January 06, 2013, 11:55:46 AM
On the subject of the latin name Ebenus cretica. Help please. It looks as though Ebenus is masc. and cretica fem. Shouldn't they agree in gender, or are taxonomic rules rules unto themselves?
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica cultivation and propagation
Post by: Alisdair on January 07, 2013, 04:46:12 PM
Confusing, isn't it! Quite a few Latin nouns in the 2nd ("feminine") declension end in -us, so need to have the feminine version of the adjective decribing them. Ebenus is one of these.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica cultivation and propagation
Post by: Joanna Savage on January 08, 2013, 06:49:01 AM
Alisdair, Thanks so much for sorting my puzzle about the latin name Ebenus cretica. Your comments sent me back to my ancient and much neglected Kennedy's Latin Primer and my old school dictionary of classical latin.

Interestingly Arbutus, Laurus, Myrtus and Quercus  also  seem to be feminine nouns.

Somehow I have been thoroughly confused about the Ebenus in E.cretica and the ebony in ebony wood. The latter , it appears is usually a Diospyros (the same genus as persimmon). My small school dictionary defines ebenus as m., the ebony tree. That doesn't seem to be right in contemporary terms. I wonder how the name Ebenus attached itself to E. cretica. Is there something very hard about it? Also, it seems to have been an Onobrychis at some stage in its nomenclature.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica cultivation and propagation
Post by: JTh on January 08, 2013, 10:34:39 AM
Onobrychis cretica was not an earlier name for E. cretica, but a synonym for the the plant with the accepted name Onobrychis aequidentata.
The name Onobrychis is easier to explain, it means: which is devoured by the donkey (from ancient Greek). Maybe the stems of Ebenus were too hard to be digested and used as fodder by domestic animal, and thus got the name ‘ebony’?
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica cultivation and propagation
Post by: Fermi on December 06, 2013, 07:32:36 AM
Well your'e nearly there now and as you only have the one you can't experiment so good luck!
Hi John,
I planted it out in a raised bed at the end of spring and it's still looking okay as we head into summer!
cheers
fermi
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica cultivation and propagation
Post by: Fermi on February 09, 2014, 03:54:20 AM
It's looking very dehydrated - are you sure I'm not supposed to water it?
cheers
fermi
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica cultivation and propagation
Post by: Fleur Pavlidis on February 09, 2014, 10:59:26 PM
Well...the established plants at Sparoza never get watered and by the end of the summer they look quite dead to the untrained eye. When the autumn rains start they slowly come back and the shrunken leaves fill out again. I on the other hand don't have a strong stomach so I give my plants a little irrigation and they never look quite as dead.
Title: Re: Ebenus cretica cultivation and propagation
Post by: Fermi on February 23, 2014, 04:56:08 AM
Thanks, Fleur,
I'll wait to see if it revives!
cheers
fermi