The MGS Forum
Plants for mediterranean gardens => Climbers => Topic started by: David Bracey on December 02, 2011, 12:03:30 PM
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I am in the process of writing an articile on Hederas for TMG. Apart from the nomenculature (is that how you spell it) and naming the cultivars , both of which are pains, I am looking for some inputs from Forum readers. I would like to have any inputs, good or bad , on your experiences with Hederas in a mediterranean garden/enviroment. If you could name the spoecies/cultivar it would help nail down the subject. Thanks for your help David
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There must be someone out there who grows ivies in our climate !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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David, ivy hasn't put in a spontaneous appearance at our sea-level Greek house though it occurs up the mountain behind. We think it a bit too northern looking for a hot mediterranean garden.
But I was impressed by low ivy hedges along paths at Moratalla in Andalucia. I may have a picture which I'll dig out if my computer which bust yesterday ever recovers.
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I've avoided the usual big-leafed ivy which is found in many old Athens gardens because at my previous house it used to grow up the trees and strangle them. We used to have a member here who brought assorted ivies to our plant exchanges and I always took one home but they never survived a summer. The one in the photos is alive, I'm sure, because the tap drips. I'll fix the drip next summer and see the result. The ivy was planted, by the way to hide the ugly tap.
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I have seen an example of the strangling kind, in my friends' garden next to the sea in Halkidiki. The mound in the photo is covering a stump of an old poplar which died many years ago, it's quite impressive, it must be at least 5 meters tall (the grund to the left of the wall is about 1 m lower than the street). It was fantastic in October, full of flowers and bees, and smelling very intensely of honey. It grows quite freely there, like a weed, the ground is more moist than at our place a few meters higher up, but I have planted a few the seedlings from that garden along a fence I want to cover, they have at least survived the first summer (no watering).
This is surely not a cultivar, but the ordinary Hedera helix which is widespread in the Balkans, according to Polunin, and found in most of Greece up to 800 m. It was also the favourite plant of Dionysos, and in all the festivals held in his honour it was worn as a garland.
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Fleur, thanks. Do you know the name of the "big" ivy. Thanks JTh and Alisdair. Any other info would be welcome . Three replies from 180 members. Does that mean that ivies are not popular or grown in our climate?? David
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I agree with Jorun that it's Hedera helix.
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As I have already said I don't have a garden but there is a narrow strip of land in the yard of the block of flats which I am guarding against those who want to transform it into yet more parking.
It is backed by an ugly breeze block wall which I wanted to hide.
A friend of mine had a fence covered with ivy which she told me they had planted just by sticking a few bits in the ground.
Well that didn't work for me, not one cutting grew.
Now it is not needed anyway as the bushes have grown and the wall is not visible.
The member who started this discussion wanted to know of successes and failures
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Here is my input into the question of Hederas David, it is often a case of finding the time to help rather than not being bothered but your plea has sent me into action!
I have five different ivies in my garden here in Umbria which really is probably not 100 percent "Mediterranean" as we probably have more rain than many areas and do not suffer the extreme temperatures recorded for weeks on end in some Mediterranean areas. However we have periods when the temperature reaches the top 30'sC and this year for example we went for 8 weeks without any rain and my garden is not irrigated.
I think that apart from Hedera colchica (most likely "Sulphur Heart") the others are all cultivars of Hedera helix but which ones it is not easy to say apart from "erecta"
I am not very good about posting multiple photos so will probably have to do separate postings for each one! I will start with a very "common" form of Hedera helix with a large leaf. This was planted about 12 years ago behind the top of a retaining wall with the aim of it falling over and covering it. This it has done successfully and it has also spread far and wide and climbed into a Cupressus sempervirens and old bushy Olive in the same area. This growth I cut back drastically every spring. The wall is at the bottom of sloping and terraced land and so obviously retains any moisture available. However it receives full sun from quite early in the morning until quite late in the day and this can result in some burning of the leaves. All in all though it is very satisfactory and recovers quickly.
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Second photo showing some "burnt" leaves!
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Continuing David!
Perhaps the one I like best is this Hedera colchica - "Sulphur Heart"? that I planted to grow up( and over hopefully )one corner of a sitting area. It was planted about 4 years ago and although in full sun for most of the day and subject to cold winds from the Appenines at times it is doing well. It has reached a height of about 7ft and branched out well from the bottom.
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Continuing....I am such a dunce where computers are concerned!
I have a much smaller leaved ivy growing up the central area if an ironwork pergola running along the width of the house ( covering the paved area below.) Two plants were put in about 5/6 years ago to climb up the ironwork and meet at a central point to frame the view below and beyond the side of the house. Progress was slow to start with but now each plant has reached the top of the pergola and grown, and been trained along a horizontal bar where they meet in the middle. Growth is strong and dense and I am pleased with the effect. After the first year they received no irrigation but are in shade until about midday even at the height of summer.
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I could not resist a Hedera helix "Erecta" when I found one here and again, after a slow start, it is doing well.
For several years it really did not grow much at all but then it started to spread and is now, after about 5 years. a substantial specimin. It is in a fairly shaded position but in poor soil and again after the first year has received no additional irrigation.
I hope this is of some help.
In a garden that I was called into for advice I saw several different ivies being successfully used as ground cover. They might have been Hedera helix "Koniger" and /or "Pedata" as they both had very attractive "cut" leaves.
This garden was situated at quite a high level, probably 800m+ and was fairly shaded although not irrigated and left to its own devices for long periods.
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Umbrian - your photo 'Ivies 011.JPG' looks rather like 'Goldheart' (perhaps a bit cream instead of yellow). That was one of the first of many cultivars of Hedera helix I grew years ago when I had a collection. That was in the UK.
I have not tried them in Cyprus, but I would expect the long hot summers to stress them and see outbreaks of things like tarsonemid mites.
David, it may be worth pointing out in your article that there are several 'ivies' that are not Hedera, eg. the cape ivy (Senecio angulatus et al.) discussed on the forum recently.
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From my own experience Hedera helix is common in the Med. I attach a picture of Crete with the general areas where I know that Hedera helix grows on the island. Obviously not in every habitat but particularly in valleys, gullies and north facing cliffs. It's altitudinal range is generally from sea level to around 1200m though there are a few exceptions higher up in sheltered habitats.
The other picture is of it growing up the rock face of one of the monoliths at Meteora on our trip to northern Greece.
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David, I would not say that this ivy is not of interest in a mediterranean climate, it is certainly not restricted to northern Europe (it may actually grow almost up to the Polar Circle along the coast here in Norway), it is after all native to most of Europe and western Asia. In a hot, dry climate it is probably not as invasive as it may be in cooler parts of the world. I believe that it may be a useful plant, and I hope that those I planted this summer will cover an ugly wire fence quickly. If so, it will make a very useful hedging. Personally, I only knew this as a somewhat difficult potted plant for indoor use (the dry air indoors in Norway is not ideal), and I was very surprised when I saw it growing wild in Greece, at first I did not recognise the large leaves growing higher up, they were very different from those on small house plants. Then I realised that there were two types of leaves, the smaller, palmately five-lobed juvenile leaves on creeping and climbing stems, and the larger, unlobed adult ones on the fertile flowering stems higher up.
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John, your Crete distribution map is really impressive - great to have this sort of first-hand experience on the forum. Thanks!
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Thanks, rather crudely hatched though.
Hedera helix f. poetarum isn't native to Crete but is planted there in a few places. It is from SE Europe and the Caucasus but has showy yellow fruits. We have it as a shrub grown from an arborescent cutting, see picture. It is easy to keep to a confined size by hard pruning after the fruits have finished (or as is more often the case having been eaten by birds) in spring.
Years ago I grew an arborescent form of Hedera nepalensis from SE Asia which grew well but may be more tender than H. helix. It too has yellow fruits or through to orange or red.
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This may also be of interest. I like Orobanche though they can be a real pest on some hosts. Orobanche hederae is parasitic solely (probably) on Hedera. It is native though I have not seen it on Crete. I know of several places with it around London including Kew Gardens. Here's a picture of it in Dulwich growing on Hedera helix 'Hibernica' (subsp. hibernica).
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Good morning; I hope this is not a repeat from last night which appears to have been "lost". Thanks for all your help. The picture is coming to-gether slowly. I have successfully grown several small-leafed ivies in the Gard however finding the correct microclimate is, I think, the secret for ivies in a med climate. These I grew in a shady situation with dappled light and perhaps a few hours of direct sunlight. H.helix grows well under dense shade from mature evergreen oaks and is regularly trimmed to form a dense carpet. Would it substitute as a lawn?
Ivies prefer alkaline soils so that is an advantage. There are several species coming from the Azores, Canary Islands and N Africa and they should be worth trying. I think the varieagated cultivars should be treated with respect as I `sure they will scorch if left in direct sunlight for any length of time.
Do you think altitude make any difference? My attitude is that you have to work with what you`ve got, so suck it and see.
There is a lot of roadside planting in RSA and CA with big-leaved ivies which I assume are H algeriensis G de Marengo which put up with pollution, clipping, sun etc. I think there is a large potential for Hederas in the med but we need some more test work on some of the species and cultivars.
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John according to my research , Plant List etc, H hibernica is a species in its own right.
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H. hibernica has been given several status over the years and I suppose it depends which botanist you are but go with your research. H. hibernica is vigorous and I have used it for creating quick screening.
I would imagine given the natural range of Hedera that provenance might play a part in selecting better clones for the mediterranean climate but I also suspect that this would be limited given its natural habitat.
Marginal variegated clones are more likely to not like too much sun or maybe suffer more from drought stress and I suppose many of the named cultivars are more likely to have been selected from none Mediterranean plants.
I have successfully used ivy as a lawn substitute under trees here in London but obviously just for aesthetics and not for walking on other than for maintenance. Any amount of walking on it would certainly damage the foliage and the tangle of stems would make it a trip hazard.
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I would definitely not use it as a lawn substitute, the flowers are incredibly rich in nectar and bees love them.
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A very late answer to this topic. We have an established ivy hedge covering the fence to the pool area (east-west sides) and on the arid southern Costa Blanca, in full sun and completely drought- and heat-tolerant. If it gets extra water, it grows too quickly, one has to be pruning all the time. It looks the same all year around (there is no frost in this area). Pollinators and butterflies love the flowers. It has some pest in a shady corner, there is some honey fungus and leaf-drop, but cutting out the bits is enough, it grows rapidly after. The pruning and vacuuming the leaves is a bit of a nuisance.
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David, I am probably too late to enter the ivy discussion, yet I think it is worth noting that a form of ivy was often used as painted decoration in ancient Greek red and black figure and in south Italian vase painting. That's about 6th to 3rd BCE-- at least.
There has been discussion about whether juvenile or mature leaves are shown. Often the fruit is drawn so it is usually the cordate leaf shown rather than the more spreading and lobed palmate form of juvenile leaves.
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Ritamax,
That looks very healthy, at least the part in your photos.
Keep an eye out for moths visiting the flowers, too.
Also, ivy makes a good place for birds to nest - good shade, support and with a fair bit of hindrance to any marauding cats.
You wrote 'honey fungus'; I wonder if you meant 'honeydew'?
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From my experience ivies suffer from red spider attacks and not much more. They are one of the last plants to flower in the autumn and therefore attract bees, wasps, moths and so forth.
The article is written; just waiting for the ed.
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Yes, thanks Mike, I meant honeydew and the fungal disease which follows that, if I am not there to prune those bits out. The ivy is so fast to grow, that there are always plenty of healthy green coming out. No red spider so far.
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I saw this Hedera canariensis in the wonderful Huerta del Cura garden in Elche and noticed, that my ivy hedge is the same one, which explains the complete drought- and heattolerance, no scorched leaves under full sun.
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Ivies can be a pest but given dry ground and kept from scaling trees they do make a good ground cover. We have one here, propagated from an ancient plant that has heart shaped leaves, juvenile and adult. The best we find for colour is Hedera colchica Variegata which has stunning golden edged leaves that never scorch or burn. There's also 'Paddy's Pride' (golden central blotch) and 'Gloire de Marengo' but they grow too vigorously for us. 'Buttercup' is also a great favourite because its new spring leaves are pure yellow and really spark up the garden fences here and there. Ivies are easily controlled by pulling up the long running trails, by clipping edges with secateurs or by poisoning in dire circumstances. Blackberry killer mixed with kero does the trick, but be careful not to let any drift elsewhere.
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Trevor Nottle (aka Trevor Australis) has a very appealing effect, mixing different ivy cultivars, which we saw on the October MGS South Australia trip in his garden in the Adelaide Hills:
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Trevor what is your Blacberry Killer mix? It used to be 2.4.5.T but I suppose that`s banned. Interesting that blackberry was one of the first reported plants to be resistant to a herbicide.
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Some of you may know that we had the highest temp heatwave ever recorded here a few weeks ago. It reached just over 450C here in the Adelaide Hills and over 470C down in the city. None of our ivies showed any signs of leaf burn despite being fully exposed to the sun but for 'Buttercup' which grows in dappled shade. H. colchica Variegata which has large golden yellow marginal variegations had no damage at all. A bush (adult) form of H. helix with pleasing spatulate leaves also fully exposed did not burn at all even though it gets no irrigation: it grows around and over our letter box on the road verge. tn
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Returning to Ivy, I have some questions, but first the background to them. In this area of steeply sloping ground there are mulberries to be found in areas of abandoned forest. These trees are relics or descendents of relics of a silk industry in Lucca. For six years or so I watched one of these trees being overpowered by Clematis flammula. Finally I could not look at it any more so in February I cut my way through the undergrowth to the base of the mulberry. I soon found the source of the Clematis, cut it at its base and a couple of weeks later I was pleased to see the Clematis in the mulberry had died off. I will need to check again this winter to be sure it is not trying again.
However I also found a great clump of ivy growing lower down on the mulberry. I sawed into the trunk of the ivy so that it no longer had contact with the soil. Since then, with binoculars I have noted the tallest growth of the ivy has stopped and even wilted, yet it remained green. Now in November it has flowered prolifically and produced black berries.
So the questions are, does ivy actually parasitise the host plant, or does it use it only as a support until it can smother the host? And then there is the vigorous flowering on what appears to be a dying plant. Is it the case that plants have a final fling at setting seed when they are in their death throes?
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Methinks, Joanna, you're going to get various degrees of 'informed opinion' rather than straight fact. Here's mine, FWIW...
It used to be said that ivy kills host trees by strangling them, but then that was made out to be unsubstantiated lore. At the same time it was stated that death occurred by the ivy overpowering its host by weight (especially when wet), perhaps helping bring it down in a storm. But I don't know of any substantiating evidence for that.
AFAIK, ivy is an epiphyte, not a parasite as such, though it obviously competes for nutrients, water and light, and it could harbour harmful pests (or beneficial ones). As such, it may weaken its host through competition.
I suspect most of us have seen tree trunks growing over a constriction or obstruction of one sort or another, eg. fence wires and rails. Yet I have never seen such overgrowth happening where a tree is encircled with ivy - not even where the ivy forms a complex interlocking mesh of branches. That leads me to presume that ivy does not strangle its host, though exactly how the ivy adjusts to the increasing girth of its host's trunk, I can only hypothesize.
I am not entirely surprised by the panic flowering post-severing of the ivy's trunk.
The ivy may have continued to obtain some moisture from its numerous aerial roots attached to its host's trunk. It may even have put out proper (feeding) roots into litter in bark crevices. And the loss of circulation from the roots may have altered the chemical/hormonal balance, resulting in a promotion of flowering activity. That's similar to how, if one has an apple tree that's producing too much vegetative growth, one can stimulate flowering by partially 'ringing' its bark. ...And slightly less similar to how nipping-out the growing tip of a shoot can promote the development of side-shoots (that happens because the tip contains meristem tissue, which produces auxin and strigolactone hormones, which ordinarily suppress the growth of lateral buds).
Let's see what other folks have to say...
Mike
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You ask what other people say, Mike, here is what I found:
From http://herbaria.plants.ox.ac.uk/bol/plants400/Profiles/GH/Hedera:
'Despite popular belief and superficial appearances, Hedera helix is not a parasite. It produces its own food resources via photosynthesis but attaches itself to the stems of trees by adventitious roots. Only when ivy gets very large, making the tree to which it is attached top heavy, is it likely to become a problem.
Ivy flowers during autumn and early winter, and produces fruits into late winter. Consequently, ivy is a very important source of nectar and pollen for late-season insects. It is also an important source of winter food for birds, and a nesting site during the spring.'
and from http://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:90723-1
'Ivy is not a parasite, does not normally damage sound buildings or walls, and is rarely a threat to healthy trees. Regular trimming can prevent ivy becoming too heavy, a problem that can be exacerbated by the additional weight of rain and snow.'
Problems due to heavy snow is not normally such a big problem in the Mediterranen region, I suppose. It's wonderful to see the flowering ivy in the autumn when it's full of bees, you can actually smell the honey from far away
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Many many thanks to Mike and JTh for their ivy comments. In the particular case here, the ivy has been without roots into the ground for ten months, two of the summer months being the hottest and driest on record. As JTh cites reports that ivy is not parasitic, Mike's idea of ivy being in an epiphytic relation to its host is a good one as the plant is still vigorous and green but not expanding in size.
This winter, when a couple of weeks of frost have tamed the undergrowth I will return to the tree to see if I can find ivy feeding roots on the bark of the tree.
With regard to ivy and snow bringing trees down, there are numerous cases around here in abandoned olive groves where the olives have fallen to the ground but the ivy thrives.