The MGS Forum
Plants for mediterranean gardens => Perennials => Topic started by: Daisy on August 25, 2011, 09:08:19 AM
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This is pansy Rippling Waters. It started flowering in March.
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss112/daisyincrete/006-3.jpg)
It is still flowering now at the end of August! Other plants have grown up in front and around it, but it is still doing it's thing!
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss112/daisyincrete/010-3.jpg)
It is the hottest sunniest part of the garden too!
Daisy :)
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They (and you) have done well, Daisy!
Have you tried Viola cornuta?
In hot sunny conditions it should fare better than pansies - so could be spectacular for you :)
It is something I dearly want to try for myself in Cyprus.
(post-merger of topics, please refer to my detailed posting above)
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Well, a search of the forum turned up nothing for Viola cornuta, so let me rectify that!
Has anybody here tried Viola cornuta, horned violet, in a mediterranean garden? ...Successfully or not.
It comes from the Pyrenees, and not the highest elevations, so it is in the right ball-park.
But I have never (in my short experience, in Cyprus) seen it for sale in local nurseries.
It is something I dearly want to try for myself in Cyprus.
It is perennial, clump or mat forming, floriferous, varied in colour, scented in some cases, and should be easy to propagate.
I am interested in seeing how long it flowers for here (well not actually here - I am in Gabon just now - marvels of the internet and all that!).
When I researched and wrote my article on Viola cornuta in The Plantsman (March 2007) (http://www.rhs.org.uk/Plants/RHS-Publications/Journals/The-Plantsman/2007-issues/March), I found myself almost drooling over the photos the MacGregor's allowed me to use (expertly grown by Elizabeth, photo'd by Alasdair). I don't have permission to use Alasdair's most salivatory photos here, but this page (http://www.elizabethmacgregornursery.co.uk/content.php?id=117) on their web site shows a border nicely packed with several cultivars. You can search their catalogue for 'Viola cornuta' to see more photos and get an idea of the range of colours.
Elizabeth grows them well in the cool dampness of Kirkudbightshire, in the southwest of Scotland. ...Seems a long way, ecologically, from there to Cyprus, I know!
Here's a shot of the flowers and seed pods side-on - showing the very characteristic long spur. This is the wild species; typical blue petals; growing in scrubland near Gavarnie, Hautes-Pyrénées, France.
So, if you've got any experiences to talk about, please reply!
I hope this thread will act as a repository for experiments and experiences concerning V. cornuta, by others and myself, as time goes by.
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Lovely photographs Daisy! :)
I have "wild" violets, not sure which, that repeat flower all through the year especially when in cooler shaded positions. I was given some plants of Viola sororia in the spring but have not yet planted them out but am hoping they will be successful as I grew them in the UK and loved them. :)
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The only other violas I have tried so far, have been a couple of hybrids. Rebecca and Etain.
I am sorry to say, that they slowly dwindled away during their first summer.
However, Viola riviniana 'Purpurea Group' (generally sold under the name Viola labradorica Purpurea) had seeded into some of the pots of plants I bought with me from Cornwall. It has settled down and is now seeding around a little.
Mike. I have some questions about Viola cornuta. I will ask them on the other thread.
Umbrian. I had Viola sororia, in shade, in my old garden in Cornwall.
It made lovely big clumps behind the tool shed ;D
I hope yours do well for you.
Daisy :)
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Mike, I would very much love to grow any sort of violas in my garden.
However, after losing Rebecca and Etain, I am wary of trying more. :( :( :(
I would love to hear which ones you think it might be worth having another go with.
I am at 300 metres above sea level on sandy loam. The garden faces north west.
Thank-you. Daisy :)
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I have merged the various messages about violas and pansies into this single thread. (So as to keep the structure of the forum as simple as possible, we decided from the outset to use the genus level rather than the species level as topics - within a thread, if you want to differentiate the subject of your message, remember that once you have clicked on Reply you can always change the subject line from whatever comes up as the default, e.g. to name the species you will be talking about.)
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Daisy,
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Mike, I would very much love to grow any sort of violas in my garden.
However, after losing Rebecca and Etain, I am wary of trying more.
I would love to hear which ones you think it might be worth having another go with.
I am at 300 metres above sea level on sandy loam. The garden faces north west.
Thank-you. Daisy
'Rebecca' and 'Etain' are bedding violas, rather than V. cornuta cultivars per se.
I think the latter would be worth a go. They should not prove too fussy about soil or aspect, but they won't do in much shade. Certainly, 300m altitude is no problem. What I don't know about is how best to water them (or not) in a mediterranean climate. In the Pyrenees, they don't have to go months without a drop. I hope I/we can find that out by experience or from others. I would suggest growing them in the ground, or if in a pot make it a big one.
Tip:
Very many pansies and bedding violas have a yellow eye to the flower. That's because their parents do.
V. cornuta does not; it has a white eye. And that can be a clue as to how much cornuta 'blood' a viola, sensu lato, has in it.
If you grow several cultivars, or even just the blue and white forms of the species, be aware that they will hybridize. As with blue and white bluebells grown together, where you get some mauve offspring, a similar thing will happen with horned violet.
There are other species to try; not quite like bedding violas, though.
For instance:
- V. scorpiuroides (Crete and Libya; small yellow scented flowers; something of a curiosity)
- V. arborescens (western Med., near the coast; small mauvy flowers; of lesser garden interest unless you're a Viola nut!)
- V. allchariensis (Macedonia; purple flowers)
- V. eugeniae (central Italy; yellow or purple flowers; can be very floriferous)
And I must mention a special group of three:
- V. delphinantha (Greece, Mt. Olympus; and Bulgaria (secret location))
- V. kosaninii (Macedonia, mountains, just creeping into N. Greece)
- V. cazorlensis (Spain, mountains, eg. Sierra de Cazorla, Segura y Las Villas)
The last three all have pink flowers with slender petals and a very long spur. The leaves, like the first three, are divided into narrow strips. They are also sub-shrubby. The overall effect can be a little like a Phlox douglasii.
Go to International Rock Gardener, March 2010 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2010Mar311270058840IRG_March_2010.pdf), search (CTRL-F) for 'Viola kosaninii' and you will see a photo of a lovely collection of all three growing together in tufa in the garden of Vlastimil Pilous. Scroll down to the next page for some photos closer-up. Tempted?
These three may not be as difficult as the rosulate Violas from the Andes, but I suspect they would probably prove a bit fussy, at least at first.
If you want to have a go, do what I plan to do: email Vlastimil. I noticed a posting on GardenWeb":
"I have received seeds from Vlastimil Pilous vlpilous@seznam.cz, Chech, has great source of some rare seeds."
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Mike. Thank-you for such a full and complete reply.
I didn't realise there are so many to try!
I think that I had better start with the easiest ones.
The photos of the violas in Elizabeth MacGregor's nursery make me drool too! ;D ;D ;D
Then the three violas in tufa rock in Vlastimil Pilious's garden look like gems in a setting.
I used tufa rock a lot in England. I wish I could get it here.
Daisy :)
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Cali, I am interested in your comment about wild violets amongst your palm stumps, here (http://www.mgsforum.org/smf/index.php?topic=517.msg3093). Do you know the species and/or have a photo?
(thanks for PMs)
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The wild violets in our area I have assumed are Viola alba. I went to take a photo today of the one growing between the leaf stumps of our palm and discovered to my huge surprise that it had several flowers. They usually bloom in February and March, needless to say. Here is the photo.
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Thanks Cali.
It looks like V. odorata.
In the wild, Vv. alba and odorata both come in purple and white forms, both quite common. It just happened that the plants that Besser used in his diagnosis of V. alba were white, hence the name.
The species are certainly quite similar, but one key difference is that V. alba's flowers come from leaf axis on the runners, whereas V. odorata's flowers come from the leaf rosettes. You can see that helps the ident. using your photo.
Like many other plants, violets can flower out of season. Often, such flowers are somewhat deformed or small, but those in your photo look fine. Thank you for taking the photo to let me see it.
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Thank you Mike. I assumed they were alba not because they're white (there are plenty of purple ones around here, too) but because someone once said so. Now I've looked them up in Blamey/Grey-Wilson and seen that only odoratas have runners, so I should have known... mine run all over the place!
Anyway, the ones in the photo are quite small and unpreposessing compared to the spring ones.
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Jolly good.
There are some close relatives of V. odorata that do not have runners, eg. V. hirta, but V. alba is not one of them; V. alba does have runners, whatever Marjorie and Kit say in that book.
Thomas Marcussen's 'Evolution, phylogeography, and taxonomy within the Viola alba complex (Violaceae)', 19mar2003 gives a good up-to-date reference on V. alba and its subspecies (and related species); preview here - http://www.springerlink.com/content/0qqnwfmp9f1xn9bl/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/0qqnwfmp9f1xn9bl/)
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Whilst in Catalonia we visited the garden of Anne Neuve-Egllise and apart from the very luxuriant garden full of roses we were invited into her home. There was a sheltered courtyard which was covered in plants growing in a very natural but lawn like fashion. I seem to remember that there were Primula vulgaris and a whole range of other plants including Viola hederacea which was very happy. Presumably this would be a species that would suit some other members gardens in a similar shaded spot. I suspect that like the Primula it would survive some summer stress to recover in the autumn.
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John, it can withstand practically every condition and with suitable watering makes a thick flat groundcover.
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V. hederacea, like many viola, is susceptible to spider mite (Tetranychus spp.). If the plant is grown in dryer conditions than it prefers, the spider mites can really get a hold, and if not killed-off, you can be left with just two options: burning the top growth off or digging-up and destroying the plants.
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Hi Mike, just came across this when I realised there is what I presume to be a tiny annual Viola in the bottom left hand corner of the main pic of a geranium, probably G. tuberosum? Cropped close up of Viola sp. second pic. This was on the trip to SW Turkey in April 2010. This site was near Termessos.
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Probably Viola kitaibeliana, John.
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For forum photos of some other Viola species, click on their names below:
Viola heldreichii (http://www.mgsforum.org/smf/index.php?topic=480.0)
Viola reichenbachiana (http://www.mgsforum.org/smf/index.php?topic=479.0)
Viola tricolor (http://www.mgsforum.org/smf/index.php?topic=276.0) ssp. macedonica
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Might as well ask Mike about this one. Taken in the Tara Canyon, Montenegro in May. Growing in beech forest.
Sorry it was the only shot I took and in a hurry so no close up.
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Might as well put this one in too. Taken in May on Montseny a mountain to the north of Barcelona. This is on the north side and again in beech forest growing alongside Ramonda which unfortunately wasn't in flower.
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This one was very nice and growing at its best where juniper had been burnt off as here in the alpine meadows around Mount Kom in Montenegro again in May. This one was identified as V. elegantula. Do you agree Mike?
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And another one from Montseny, north of Barcelona. This one I was told is V. bubanii. Mike do you agree?
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Hmm - has the general character of V. reichenbachiana, but:
- it is too late in the year
- the spur is too long (though the right colour)
- the sepal appendages are too big (as far as I can tell)
I'll have to ponder some more...
Might as well ask Mike about this one. Taken in the Tara Canyon, Montenegro in May. Growing in beech forest.
Sorry it was the only shot I took and in a hurry so no close up.
Belated update on other photo (your post of 04 July 2012, 14:46:49):
Yes, I agree - V. bubanii.
And the ones in beech woods:
Both V. reichenbachiana (perhaps spring comes late to those mountains)
For Viola in Spain/Portugal - refer to the section on Viola in Flora Iberica - http://www.floraiberica.es/floraiberica/texto/pdfs/03_065_01_Viola.pdf
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Very nice John.
Yes, it could be V. elegantula. Any scent?
I used to grow V. e. ssp. bosniaca (pink), which had a very nice scent.
I'll see if I can check it out more carefully meanwhile.
This one was very nice and growing at its best where juniper had been burnt off as here in the alpine meadows around Mount Kom in Montenegro again in May. This one was identified as V. elegantula. Do you agree Mike?
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In reply I have to say I didn't check for scent, too windy and not enough time!
Just realised there was this other one in Montenegro which would have been under snow for the winter. Taken in the National Park Lovcen. At least thats what I wrote down.
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interim reply: working on it..., lots of stuff on my plate just now...
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No rush and as much as interest for you!
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Of further Viola interest. I was judging at the RHS Tatton show 2 days ago and though not a stand I judged here's one of a nursery called Victorian Violas. These are cultivars which still have the look and habit of wild violas very much like the ones we have been seeing around the northern Mediterranean mountains and indeed much of their ancestry came from these wild species.
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John, their website (http://www.victorianviolas.co.uk/) appears to be for UK sales only?
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Does that matter? I wasn't proposing that people buy from them!
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Doesn't matter at all! But the violas look so nice that some people might have wanted to order from them.... That's why I asked.
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I've just had a look in the show catalogue which doesn't give such information and on their web site there doesn't seem to be any either. Interestingly they appear not to be in the Plant Finder.
Over the years I have from time to time grown this type of Viola with varying degrees of success but at least they do retain the wild characteristics of the species.
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Those violas are mainly bedding violas (most suitable for garden use), rather than show or exhibition types.
A couple of references on violas, which concentrate on the bedding types:
- Morris May: 'Victorian Visions' in 'The Garden', May 1998, p.356-361
- Mike Hardman: 'Viva Violas!' in 'The Garden', May 2008, pp.298–301
As regards supply: Wildegoose Nursery, http://www.boutsviolas.co.uk, who will ship to the EU as well as Britain. (Mark and Stephanie Roberts developed the quite well-known Bouts Cottage Nurseries over the years since 1978. When they retired last year, the nursery was taken on by Laura Crowe and Jack Willgoss, and hence the plants can now be found at Wildegoose Nursery.) This is one of the best collections of violas for sale.
An important constituent of bedding violas is Viola cornuta, from the Pyrenees (as John hints). There are many lovely cultivars of that species, which can be grown in similar situations to bedding violas. Not as easy to get hold of, granted, you can read about V. cornuta in my article in 'The Plantsman', March 2007. Cornuta genes add perenniality, and can be seen in some cultivars by the presence of a white eye in the middle of the flower (many other violas and species 'pansies' have a yellow eye).
A lot of the development of V. cornuta was done by Richard Cawthorne, in Kent. Morris May, in his 'Planta Vera' nursery between Woking and Staines, took on Richard nursery contents shortly before Richard's death, and for a while he was the national collection holder. But he had to focus on more commercial plants (mass plantings for councils, etc.). If Morris has any violas left, you'd have to go visit and ask nicely! (It would help to mention my name, and send Morris my regards.)
The best place for V. cornuta cultivars (they sell other violas and other perennials as well) is Elizabeth MacGregor Nursery at Kirkcudbright, in the west of Scotland - http://www.elizabethmacgregornursery.co.uk. They ship to the EU. They are regular RHS Chelsea medal winners. A photo here (http://www.elizabethmacgregornursery.co.uk/content.php?id=117) shows how V. cornuta can form lovely spreading carpets. You may wonder about the suitability for mediterranean climates of plants that grow well in the west of Scotland, but as proof, one can point to the superb cedars of Lebanon that grow in their garden. The web site and catalogue is quite nice to browse, helped by Alasdair MacGregor's excellent photography. Roy Lancaster visited their nursery and garden, as documented in 'The Garden', May 2008 (http://www.elizabethmacgregornursery.co.uk/downloads/TheGardenMay08.pdf).
As I have made significant progress developing the structure of my garden in Cyprus, I am almost ready to try several V. cornuta cultivars myself. I am looking forward to that.
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Pansy Padparadja seems to like it here.
I planted some young seedlings, on top of some tulip bulbs in a pot, last November. They are still flowering.
They are next to a pot containing Rose Pat Austin.
Pat Austin smells of ripe mangoes and the pansies have a lovely,strong, sweet, spicy smell.
I can quite happily go from one to the other, sniffing for hours. ::) ::) ::)
Daisy :)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss112/daisyincrete/018_zpsbadaa9a5.jpg)
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Hello,
I am not sure where to begin here... first it was interesting to see a photo of our Australian 'weed' Viola hederacea (now re classified as V. banksii) carpeting a lovely old garden. Also, Mike, I thought you might be interested to know that I recently obtained a form of Viola cornuta from a nursery here in Victoria. The listing in the catalogue simply reads..."A perennial species of Viola....lilac long faced pansy flowers...A plant from hot hillsides in what used to be called Yugoslavia"...and then they claim it is heat and sun-tolerant. I mail ordered 2 plants which are growing well and am looking forward to them flowering. Soon, I hope, and a will send a photo when this happens. Meanwhile I hope to be able to contribute to this forum. I grow many violets together with Mediterranean herbs.
Cheers for now, helenaviolet. :)
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Hello and welcome helenaviolet!
Interesting name, in that Napoleon, who was exiled to St Helena and who took the violets as one of his emblems, had a wife Empress Eugenie, who is also associated with violets (there is a Viola eugeniae). But you probably knew that (?)
I look forward to seeing your purportedly Yugoslavian V. cornuta in due course (true V. cornuta comes only from the Pyrenees, of course). When you take your photos, please let's have a look at the spur sideways-on (spur should be long), and the flower full-face (looking for a white eye), and the stipules at the base of the leaves (small and somewhat triangular).
I wonder if you have come across my violet-enthusiast friend, Rob Peace, from your neck of the woods (Ferntree Gully, Victoria). If not, let me know and I can put you in touch.
I hope to hear more about your 'growing many violets together with Mediterranean herbs' as & when you have observations or thoughts to share, or questions to ask.
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Thankyou Mike,
One of my favourite articles on violets "Violets and the High Life" by Audrey Le Lievre was published in Hortus magazine, winter 1989 vol 3 # 4. She suggests that a violet should be named after the Empress Eugenie. It is thanks to Rob Peace that I have been able to identify some of my violets. I am not sure about the best way to go about sending/posting photos here at MGS. Please, any advice would be appreciated.
Cheers, H :)
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Helena Violet, There is some general information on how to post pictures which you can find if you click here (http://www.mgsforum.org/smf/index.php?topic=5.0), and scroll down through the various replies. In the index of that same "How the Forum Works" section there are one or two more specific postings on how to resize photos. Hope that helps!
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Hi Alisdair,
Thankyou for your assistance. I have resized these pics so hope they look OK. People are welcome to copy them, if they wish, for discussion purposes.
3 pics of a Viola odorata cultivar which I know has been growing in Australia since at least the 1920's. Please, if it looks at all familiar, I would be interested in any information. Curiously, I think it may be growing in Malta. I saw some pics on the 'Wild Plants of Malta' website (presently seems to be closed) a few months ago.
It is a large violet, robust upright growth habit, large coarsely textured leaves. Flowers are lightly scented, broad open faces with long petals. A pretty lavender-blue with a crimson blush in cold weather. Tall stems, excellent for picking. I refer to it as "Julie's violet" in memory of an old friend who gave it to me. Certainly this is an old variety but I haven't been able to find any matching descriptions in lists of heritage violet cultivars. I wonder if, possibly, this violet has ancestry somewhere other than France or England.
Cheers, Helena :)
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Thanks for posting those pictures, Helena: what an excellent blue that is.
I hope one of our violet experts may be able to put a name to this fine cultivar.
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I'm consulting with some growers in the UK and France...
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Helenaviolet,
No definitive answer, but here's what we have.
Rob Peace comments:
"The violet seems to be a giant Russian violet. It's the same type as cyclope but without the central rosette. It is scented for us." (You may have heard that from him already, of course.)
Clive Groves comments:
"I have come across this violet several times in Spain and in Portugal, confusingly it is labeled in the botanical gardens in Beja as Viola odorata, its almost the warm continental version, it does not seem to be affected by red spider mite, it has a warm glow on lavender flowers but unfortunately hardly any scent, all very confusing."
Here's a photo of Clive's plant. (http://www.grovesnurseries.co.uk/products/spanish-blue-violet-9330.aspx#.UHpnem_R54Y)
I would add that your plant looks a bit like Nathalie Casbas' 'Colombine' (http://www.grovesnurseries.co.uk/products/colombine-violet-5624.aspx#.UHpmkm_R54Y)
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Thanks Mike,
I thought possibly 'Colombine' a couple of years ago, also possibly 'California' USA but, well, not quite right. Clive's "Spanish Blue" is interesting but needs a clear white centre to fit. Oh yes, tough and disease resistant. Many features suggest a plant which may have been developed for commercial flower production. Regards to Rob and appreciation for his time, patience and valuable research over the years. 'Cyclope' is a separate issue but there may be a link or some relationship to the following. I hope it adds interest here at MGS without causing confusion.
"King of the Doubles" sometimes called "Jazz" is another old violet found in Australia. It is a fully double form of V.odorata. Two pics- a) early flowers which are more open showing the unusual construction of the flowers and b) later flowers which form compact rosettes of violet blue streaked with white. Robust growth habit (which is similar to 'Julie's violet') and large coarsely textured leaves (also similar to 'Julie's violet'). Mentioned in old Aust. gardening books. Earliest official record I have is 1928 in Gill & Searle Pty. Ltd. seed & plant catalog, Melbourne.
Cheers for now, Helena :)
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Helena,
Those are cracking plants, and cracking photos. Love' em!
I can tell, when it comes to violets, you know your onions!
Returning to 'Julie's Violet'...
Cultivars or plant trade names have been coined for less worthy / less distinct plants than yours.
We can't identify it as another cultivar or natural taxon. So I don't think there would be much objection if you wanted to name your plant officially. As far as I know, 'Juliana' is available (there is a Nymphaea odorata 'Juliana', but that does not cause a conflict according to ICNCP (http://www.ishs.org/sci/icracpco.htm) rules). I'll have to check to see if the registrar, Tom Silvers / AVS, has changed or is still active. The Viola cultivar registration submission page is here (http://americanvioletsociety.org/NewCultivarRegistrationForm.htm).
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Thankyou Mike,
Wish I did know my onions but no, I am just very fond of them - point is that I am seeking to find the identity of that violet because I believe it is a significant cultivar. I am glad you raised the subject of naming plants. We suffer confusion because often people in commercial enterprise mis-name plants. It was thanks to Rob that I discovered "Governor Herrick" which is sold in Australia under other names. Many of my violets have been given to me by friends. I label them accordingly. 'Julie's violet' came from my old friend. It was a family heirloom for her so that's how I know it has been growing in Australia for the best part of a century now. I also have an identical plant which came from another friend with an old garden. We call it 'Rabbit Ears' and I take care to keep it growing separately although I am sure they are the same cultivar. 3 years ago I wrote to the American Violet Society with pics asking if they knew what the plant I refer to as 'Julie's v.' might be - and I outlined the descriptions for 5 plants which they have listed in their cultivars section 1a under H. eg: 'Helena's Starry Pink' !? Officially there is no such plant ofcourse, it got there via correspondence and I was surprised and amused by it. I haven't received a reply from the AVS and sadly it seems they are not presently active. I hope they come back because they did so much valuable work in collecting information about violets.
Cheers -Helena :)
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Helena,
It is a shame the AVS website seems to have become quiescent. I have emailed Tom Silvers; will let you know.
You are being very diligent in your searching and I note your posting on the gardenweb violet forum. And I applaud your evident aim of finding the name of the original rather than coining a new one. Bear in mind, of course, that the original plant may never have had a formal name. It may have arisen before any official registers. Credence can be attached to a plant name through publication before the days of the registers, even though the description may be inadequate. Your plant could also be missing from there. So at some stage, you might need to name it. If you don't, it would probably become lost again in future; and we don't want that. Note that a violet cultivar name cannot include the word 'violet'. If you do register your cultivar, it would require a certain level of detail in description (and your photos would help greatly), and ideally a voucher specimen. That would establish it much better than just adopting a name, probably poorly described, should you succeed in your quest. I hope you unearth a name for your plant, and that you use it to name the cultivar properly.
I will send you a message through this forum, so we can continue this offline.
But if anybody else wants to chip-in, please do so!
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Valuable information, Mike, thankyou.
Here is one of the violets listed by the AVS as "Helena's Broad Petalled Lilac" - well - no. This lovely treasure was given to me 20 years ago by a lady whose name was Edna Thomas. All she remembered was that her mother had obtained it via mail order; 1960s. In growth habit, neat compact plants which are very similar to V.odorata "Rosine". For me personally it is simply 'Edna's mauve violet'. Again this is a lovely cultivar which I hope somebody may recognise. Pictured here growing in an 8 inch pot will indicate the size and yes, the flowers are scented.
Cheers, H. :)
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Hello everyone at MGS
Some warm spring sunshine my side of the world has encouraged growth and flowers on the Viola cornuta which I mentioned earlier. It came from a nursery which specialises in dry climate gardens and was described in the catalog as "A plant from hot hillsides in what used to be called Yugoslavia it is much more sun and heat tolerant than the bedding violas..." ? maybe it has become naturalized in Yugoslavia ? No matter, it is a pretty flower on long stems of about 8 inches/20 centimetres. 2 pics here which I hope will be useful.
Cheers, H.
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Helena,
Thanks for those very nice photos (in furtherance of our posts of 7oct12). They definitely are V. cornuta (white eye, very long spur, petals shape). Maybe the immediate provenance was the former Yugoslavia, but that would, as you say, have been an introduction.
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Just to show that I was thinking of you all on our long jaunt to the Antipodes, I did see this tiny little violet on the lower slopes of Rocky Mountain, above Lake Wanaka in New Zealand - had only a cellphone on me and knew the picture would be no good, but took it anyway for Mike.
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Mike, John showed a large group of violas from Montenegro in July, he asked if you could verify they iwere Viola elegantula, but I didn't see a reply. I have a closer look of the same, does it help?
I have another Viola from the same trip, the flowers were very pale blue, or almost white, it was seen in the Mrtvica Canyon, does anybody know this one?
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I like the pale blue one Jorun, shame I didn't see it.
Also Alisdair did you not attach a picture?
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You're right John, it looks as if I failed to attach it - or the system simply decided the picture was so poor that it rejected it!
Here it is, I hope....
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Alisdair - I have never seen a Viola cunninghamii in the flesh, so I am a little envious! But I thank you for thinking of me and taking the photo.
Jorun - Thanks also. Very nice photos. I have been working on this today, but I don't have answers yet. I have candidates, but matters are not helped by mis-identification of plants in photos :(
I have also been very busy with moth identifications (working with the excellent folks at www.lepiforum.de)
John - I am also still working on my reply to your earlier photos/questions. More research required than you (no, actually not you; 'one') might imagine. Every day more lands on my plate than I can do in a day, so it is inevitable that some things take far too long. Sorry.
Please bear with me.
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OK.
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Re Viola ?elegantula?
MGS photo notes:
- Yellow eye does not have dark rays (they are further out)
- can't see spur or sepals or stipules on fully open flowers or not well enough
My best reference is Matthias Erben's 1985 work on pansies of SE Europe (1985).
Because that is in German (and my German is poor), my initial pruning-of-the-possibilities is based on distribution; Erben has maps.
He shows these species in Montenegro (pp.722-735):
- V. beckiana (eye/rays and leaves wrong (Erben, 1985, p.454,455)
- V. calcarata ssp. zoysii (eye/rays correct (Erben, 1985, p.450 (b3); usually yellow, but sometimes violet-mauve; Erben's map (p.725) shows sites ~40km SW from the Mrtvica Canyon in Montenegro)
- V. elegantula (eye/rays correct (Erben, 1985, p.635 (a1), Erben's map (p.732) shows sites including the Mrtvica Canyon)
- V. latisepala (eye/rays wrong (Erben, 1985, p.647 (a1))
- V. macedonica ssp. macedonica (eye/rays wrong (Erben, 1985, p.658 (a1))
- V. macedonica ssp. bosniaca (eye/rays wrong (Erben, 1985, p.660 (a1))
- V. orphanidis (eye/rays wrong (Erben, 1985, p.694 (a1))
- V. polyodonta (no photos or useful diagrams found, description not translated from German (Erben, 1985, p.682-685, 734) - hence cannot rule out, but it is noted by Erben from only one locality - near Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina, which is ~100km NW from the Mrtvica Canyon in Montenegro)
Similar but ruled out:
- V. schariensis (Albania, dark rays extend into yellow eye)
- V. eugeniae (Italy, eye/rays wrong)
- V. valderia (Italy, eye/rays and leaves wrong)
And I checked many more, which were not so similar.
V. elegantula has, in comparison with V. latisepala and other relatives of V. tricolor:
- more deeply divided stipules
- broader sepals
- longer spur
(Erben, p.630)
John, in this respect, please could you check your earlier (4jul12) photo (http://www.mgsforum.org/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=225.0;attach=4423;image). There is not enough resolution in the version on the forum for me to do so.
Refinement:
- V. elegantula - shortly pubescent throughout, stems 10-20cm long
- V. calcarata ssp. zoysii - compact, short-stemmed; example of purple-flowered form in Montenegro - http://www.biolib.cz/en/taxonimage/id111939/
It is not well-defined, but there is a tendency for the eye of V. c. zoysii to be squarish - which is not the shape in the MGS photos.
If we could see the stipules better it would help (Erben pp.450, 634, 685), in comparison with V. elegantula (broad and fairly deeply divided):
- V. calcarata - narrower and merely slightly toothed
- V. polyodonta - broader and less-divided
Going on Jorun's photo, my feeling is V. elegantula. John, perhaps you could check that, too. Need to look at the originals.
Summary:
- Most likely: V. elegantula
- Less likely: V. calcarata ssp. zoysii / V. polyodonta
As regards the correct name for the plant, The Plant List (http://www.theplantlist.org) has :
- V. beckiana - 'unresolved name'
- V. calcarata ssp. zoysii - 'unresolved name'
- V. elegantula - 'unresolved name'
- V. latisepala - 'unresolved name'
- V. macedonica - 'unresolved name'
- V. polyodonta - 'unresolved name'
- V. orphanidis - unresolved name'
...Which means just that - they are unresolved because deep enough taxonomic studies have not been done/concluded.
So, for now, the names I have used are as good as any.
Ref:
Matthias Erben, 1985:
'Cytotaxonomische Untersuchungen an Sudosteuropaischen, Viola - Arten der sektion Melanium';
Mitt. Bot. Munchen 21, pp.339-740, 31dec1985;
ISSN 0006-8179
(The estimable Wittrock's works don't help much here.)
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Thank you, Mike, that was a very thorough study. My photo was from the same cluster as the one in John's photo. If you say it's most likely V. elegantula, I don't anybody will contest that.
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Mike, as you have gone to this much trouble here are some cropped shots of the details.
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Thanks John.
The stipules confirm it as V. elegantula.
It is lovely.
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Thank you. Too!
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Regarding identification of the other photo/plant in Jorun's posting of 5dec12...
The plant captioned Viola collina on this page
http://botanika.prf.jcu.cz/materials/fotogalerie-nahledy.php?family=Violaceae&name=Rosidae
looks very similar to the MGS forum plant; I would say it is the same species.
But, unfortunately, that is not Viola collina.
The same page also features a plant captioned Viola riviniana; also matching the MGS forum plant. But the plant in that photo has petals that are too narrow for V. r..
It is almost definitely one of the caulescent rosulate species (forming rosettes of leaves plus foliar non-stoloniferous stems), examples being Viola riviniana, reichenbachiana.
It is not V. reichenbachiana (that has a dark spur).
It is not V. riviniana (that has broader petals) - or at least not typical V. r. ...
It is superficially similar to V. sieheana, which I know from Cyprus.
Have a look at V. sieheana in Marijn van den Brink's photos from NE Turkey -
http://photos.v-d-brink.eu/search/?searchWordsShort=viola+sieheana&searchType=InAlbum&AlbumID=10572637&x=0&y=0 - similar, but with purplish spurs, not white.
Yiannis Christofides has a typically excellent photo of it here - http://www.treknature.com/gallery/Middle_East/Cyprus/photo256315.htm. The lateral petals are more heavily bearded and the petals broader than the MGS forum plant. Petal broadness/overlapping is known to be variable in this species.
Thomas Marcussen (relatively recent research) considers V. sieheana to be within V. riviniana.
...In which case, the plant from Montenegro might, after all, come under V. riviniana, in a broad sense.
Thomas wrote a useful paper:
"Species delimitation in the Ponto-Caucasian Viola sieheana complex, based on evidence from allozymes, morphology, ploidy levels, and crossing experiments"
Plant Systematics & Evolution; Feb2011, Vol. 291 Issue 3/4, p183.
http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/58001744/species-delimitation-ponto-caucasian-viola-sieheana-complex-based-evidence-from-allozymes-morphology-ploidy-levels-crossing-experiments
That includes NW Greece (Pinhos Mts.) in the range of V. sieheana sensu stricto - which is getting close to western Montenegro...
And in fact Wilhelm Becker (one of the great students and publishers of Viola), 1910, p.55, mentions some sites for it in Bosnia, Serbia, and Montenegro.
Thomas also shows that V. sieheana hybridizes with similar species.
The big problem with V. sieheana is the stipules. The ones on the MGS forum photo, even though not well shown, are much too small. I have to rule it out.
Considering other candidate species:
- V. dirphya occurs in Greece (endemic), not too far away, but its petals are consistently oval, unlike the MGS forum plant. (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7n7qoWr2hv0/S-r43YhLV2I/AAAAAAAAKcM/y2CMa6kiRL8/s1600/Viola+dirphya+tiniakou.JPG)
The similar V. caspia is too far away (eg. Azerbaijan) from Montenegro to come into consideration.
- V. chelmea occurs in Montenegro and nearby, but flowers and foliage are wrong. The two sspp. were previously included in V. sieheana.
- V. rupestris occurs nearby, but foliage, etc. is wrong.
- V. mirabilis occurs in Bosnia, but wrong leaf shape.
- V. jordani, pumila, etc. are wrong re stipules, and other features; shame in a way because some of those have the necessary pale blue flowers.
- V. reichenbachiana occurs in Montenegro, and has a pale blue form (f. pallida), but other aspects of the flower don't match, eg. dark spur.
- V. oligyrtia is endemic to Greece, and not quite right (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=3329.180)
In summary,
I am of the opinion that the plant is Viola riviniana, though it is a form with which I am not familiar.
As far as I can tell from the photo, the essential characteristics (many of which, such as petal venation, I have not mentioned here) are correct.
The narrowness of the petals may be a regional character, as may their paleness. That's based not just on this one plant, but on the similarity the plant to this one
http://botanika.prf.jcu.cz/materials/fotogalerie-nahledy.php?family=Violaceae&name=Rosidae (scroll down to the V. riviniana photo).
If it is a known forma/varietas, I have not discovered its diagnosis or supporting photographs.
I will email Thomas for his opinion.
Update, 25dec12:
I have discussed this with Thomas.
He cannot give a certain identification either, but leans towards V. sieheana (which would make your plant/observation in Montenegro an extension of its range, Jorun).
He says that the stipules of V. sieheana are very variable - making my comment about large stipules (above) invalid. Also, he uses the presence of a seed pod in your photo to rule out a hybrid (a bit prematurely, in my opinion: seed pods sometimes form but contain empty seeds).
Thomas points out that it would be useful to know the hairiness of the plant: V. sieheana is almost glabrous, whereas V. riviniana and reichenbachiana have hairs of ~1mm on the upper leaf surface.
Result: uncertain, but either V. riviniana or sieheana.
Refs:
Becker, W., 1910, 'Violae europaeae. Systematische Bearbeitung der Violen Europas und seiner benachbarten Gebiete'.
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Mike, do you mean the photo of the very pale blue viola I sent on 5 Dec.?
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yes
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Thank you, that was a lot trouble for such a small plant, but I am very grateful. (I am not John, though, wrong gender, Jorun is a female name.)
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Jorun - slip of the brain - I have corrected my post re John/Jorun - sorry about that - Mike
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No problem, I just wanted to make sure that all your hard work was not wasted because I couldn't connect the name you gave with the correct plant.
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A little treasure here to brighten up the day. Thanks to a generous friend who gave me seeds of Viola stojanowii (which germinated well) the first little flowers have just appeared. :)
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A real beauty!
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Lovely, Helena.
Always a nice reward to have your first flower on a tenderly nurtured plant.
...Well almost always: I guess most of us have experienced instances of disappointment when it turn out not to be what we expected.
And thanks for bring it 'closer' to us (it is smaller than many a wild pansy).
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Jorun,
Re your photo of V. riviniana/sieheana in Montenegro:
I have edited my posting "Reply #62 on: 10 December 2012, 15:52:48". Please see 'Update 25dec12' near the end.
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Interesting, Mike. I have tried to look a closer look at the leaves, they seem to be rather glabrous, but I didn't specifically focus on the leaves when the photos were taken, so the details are not that clear. Some of the stipules seem rather long (and narrow) to me, but many are short and spiky. At least one of the seed capsules seems to be well develloped.
It seems as if this location is a bit further west than the normal distribution of V. sieheana, I guess it is difficult to say for sure that it is definitely the one species or the other, but I have learnt a lot, thank you!
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So, it will remain ambiguous at least until somebody goes and takes a closer look. Such is life.
I, too, learned a few things during research concerning that question.
In general, however, I wonder whether my rate of learning still exceeds my rate of forgetting! :(
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Just a little update on Viola stojanowii which is still flowering and growing well in our hot Australian summer; temperatures reaching 40c. Also it is setting seed. Here is a pic of the first pod about to burst!
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ooh - nice Helena
yes - fit to bust!
and a great job with the camera - good depth of field for the subject, but isolated from the (out of focus and darker) background
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Lovely photo, Helena - those seeds look so eager to burst into life!
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:) Mike & Alisdair rest assured that those seeds have been collected and will, hopefully, produce another generation of V.stojanowii
Here are 3 other Violas which seem to be coping remarkably well with exceptionally hot summer temperatures (30-40c); shade and regular watering are needed. All are nice foliage plants and grow well in pots or hanging baskets.
a)V.chaerophylloides from Japan makes a nice potted specimen with the fern-like leaves. Protect from frost in winter.
b)V.sulfurea I think is most probably from France. Neat ground cover foliage. Protect from frost in Winter.
c)V.labradorica Well, Not labradorica! It seems this plant has been incorrectly sold under this name and distributed as such world wide, including here in Australia. I believe it is actually a form of V.riviniana with purple leaves..? Anyway it is remarkably hardy in winter and here you can see it spilling over the edge of a 6inch pot. I have seen it used successfully as a ground cover in borders and carpeting under trees.
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The V. chaerophylloides has beautiful leaves.
Here in London V. riviniana is a dreadful weed which once you have it it is very difficult to eradicate. It can look spectacular in full flower but very quickly goes into producing apomictic fruits and therefor no more flowers.
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Thankyou John, 'apomictic' is a new term for me and I am quite intrigued by this reproductive strategy.
Altogether you have given me a new perspective on V.riviniana which I generally regarded as a dainty little "woodland violet". Oh yes it can be invasive and little seedlings pop up all over the place; in other pots etc. Certainly it has adapted well to the harsh climate in this part of the world :)
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Helena,
Lovely foliage. V. chaerophyllodes does have lovely leaves (Vv. eizanensis and dissecta also; the former has fragrant flowers).
Yes, V. labradorica hort. is actually V. riviniana Purpurea Group, though one can't rule out the true V. labradorica occasionally being sold as well. The purpleness varies from plant to plant and depending on the growing conditions (I think we've discussed anthocyanin in foliage before on this forum).
David,
Just a technicality:
- in apomixis, reproduction of an embryo bypasses the usual process of meiosis and fertilization;
- in cleistogamy, reproduction does involve fertilization, though with male and female parts of the same flower.
With violets, cleistogamy applies.
Of course, they have chasmogamous flowers as well.
That is my understanding, but there may be room for opinion. I would be interested if you have an alternative view to mine.
Everybody,
- Many species of violets produce chasmogamous ('open marriage') flowers early in their season (what you'd call normal flowers, with proper petals, which are able to reproduce sexually), and cleistgamous ('closed marriage') flowers, which have negligible petals and reproduce asexually.
- Many confusable terms are explained in a well-illustrated lecture from the University of Kentucky's College of Agriculture
"The weird and wonderful ways plants reproduce" (no author cited)
http://dept.ca.uky.edu/PLS440/lectures/geophytes/Alternativepropagation.pdf
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Excellent link, Mike :)
Very informative and useful pictorial information re various forms of propagation for all plant lovers. It easily downloads as pdf; wonder if it was part of a Powerpoint presentation at the lecture.
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I hesitate to post my very poor quality photo of the Cyprus native, Viola sieheana, among the excellent pics above. My excuse is that it was dull and raining when I took it but I had to do it then before it was beaten down completely. This flower has appeared rather prematurely as they don't usually come out until around March. We've had the plant for several years having rescued it from an area where the road was being widened. They grow in the Troodos above about 800 m in shady, moist places. Our plant has flourished and spread in the herb patch under sage and oregano, etc and close to an outside tap that tends to drip slightly and keeps the ground a little moist.
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It seems that I owe the forum members an apology and thanks to Mike Hardman for pointing out my mistake. The photo I posted of what I thought was Viola sieheana is not and is more likely to be V odorata. As I said I collected this plant many years ago and I don't think it has gone through any transformations since then so I have probably been labouring under a misconception from the beginning. So, once more I apologise.
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No problem, John.
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Thankyou John - lovely pic which seems familiar to me. I have similar pretty blue violets in my collection. They are either V.odorata or blue varieties of V. alba. Question please, is your violet scented? :)
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Helena, I have never noticed a scent from these violets. I checked with my wife, who has a far more sensitive nose for these things than I do, and she has not detected a scent either. I have posted what I hope is a better quality pic of the flower.
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Thankyou John,
For comparison here is a pic of one of my 'sky blue' violets. I have collected similar violets from several different locations and place them in a group of their own. The flowers are not scented but they are distinctive because of the light blue colour. I think they might be a form of V.alba rather than V.odorata (or perhaps a hybrid ?) Need to do more research :)
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I was given this as Viola sororia but am uncertain because it has no speckles.
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Umbrian,
Wild V. sororia is plain blue-violet.
White, pinky, freckled, speckled and splashed cultivars exist, and they are obviously influencing your thoughts.
There are also hybrids between V. sororia and V. odorata, which can look rather like V. sororia.
Here's an old thread where we discussed the issue - http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/violet/msg1120124827821.html
Note: white flowered plants sold as V. sororia are sometimes actually V. cucullata.
Mike
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Thanks Mike for your comments. The clump was /is very scented so I had concluded odorata. I followed the thread and made copious notes but am still learning ;D
The RHS book I use says that sororia is white but sometimes blue and there is a cultivar called "Freckles" that I had many years ago in England. A keen Italian plantsman friend gave me the plant in the photo and said it was sororia but it was not in flower when he gave it to me and this is the first time I have seen it in flower. The flowers are quite large - up to 3cm acros at the widest point and very beautiful. I would think it is a cross between odorata and sororia - would you agree?
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The RHS book is wrong in implying its typical colour is white; that should be violet-blue.
(...just checked it was not amongst my writings for the RHS... ...no; phew!)
3cm is larger than usual, but they do vary, partly depending on how well-grown they are.
I am sure yours is V. sororia f. priceana (as per my photo in the RHS Encyclopedia of Perennials, p.483). This is sometimes referred to as V. priceana (that is only a synonym), and has the common name 'confederate violet'. If you imagine the blue part being pink, then you have 'Alice Witter'.
The V. odorata x sororia hybrids can be recognized by looking at their horizontal stems (and by other factors, too, but the stems are always present). The horizontal stems of V. odorata are fairly thin stolons. Those of V. sororia are thicker and somewhat lumpy rhizomes. The hybrids are intermediate.
Have a look at this thread, which is ostensibly about V. sororia x odorata hybrids -
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/violet/msg0610001720709.html.
In there you'll see lots of comments, including names for various of the hybrids - eg. 'Governor Herrick', 'Bournemouth Gem', 'Mrs. Pinehurst' (we think 'Mrs Pinchurst' was a typo).
And note our helenaviolet's comment and photo showing a hybrid's leaf in comparison to those of ordinary V. odorata (that, too, is intermediate). Her next photo is of 'Governor Herrick'.
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Hi Umbrian; lovely pic of V.sororia 'Confederate Violet' and thanks Mike for the details and link to the Garden Web. V.sororiais a hardy and charming species to collect and grows well in pots.
3 pics here 1) 'Alice Witter' 2) 'Freckles' 3) plain blue one.
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Very interesting, Mike and Helena - thanks!
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Lovely piccies, Helena; thanks.
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This little annual spontaneous viola appears every year and is becoming more prolific. Could it be sp. arvensis?.
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Cheerful little chap, Joanna.
No, he's not V. arvensis. If he were, when looking at the flower straight-on, you'd see the green sepals sticking out beyond the petals. Not sure what he is.
If you could say where you garden and tell me if you ever planted pansies/tricolors hereabouts, that might help...
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I am surprised here. Joanna, I would have thought yes, V.arvensis but Mike you do have keen observation. I checked through some pics of a tiny little white viola here which I believe to be V.arvensis. Well, you can see the green sepals sticking out - ?
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Yup Helena - V. arvensis - sepals just right.
Note that, just because it has 'front-visible sepals', it is not automatically V. arvensis. There are other, smaller white/cream pansies species that also have that feature, but their flowers are notably smaller (V. kitaibeliana, eg.).
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Hello Mike, How long has it taken you to learn all these tiny facets about Viola? It is amazing what there is to be seen in one small plant. I garden in Toscana, on the southern slope of the Appenines at about 300 m. These little violas are very common in the fields around here, very occasionally they have a touch of blue colour. I have never planted pansies or violas, so if they are garden escapees they escaped generations ago.
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Joanna,
...How long? - Well, it has taken me over twenty years. So far...
Considering the location...
(V. hymettia is similar, but it has smaller flowers and occurs elsewhere.)
That leaves only two likely candidate species in your area: Vv. arvensis and tricolor (incl. ssp. subalpina).
See:
- http://luirig.altervista.org/flora/taxa/index1.php?scientific-name=viola+arvensis
- http://luirig.altervista.org/flora/taxa/index1.php?scientific-name=viola+tricolor
(Yes, I'm putting V. arvensis back into consideration for now.)
Blue in some of the petals: can occur in both species.
The 'protruding sepals' character is only one that should be considered, and it is not 100% reliable. If you can, have a go at seeing how your plants compare with the descriptions of the two species in this account -
http://www.floranordica.org/Review/-Review_public/accounts/Viola.html#arvensis
That might point towards one of these species, if you're lucky. However, characters often seem mixed.
One should also consider the hybrid V. tricolor X arvensis (V. X contempta). It is of intermeiate character, hence very tricky.
Sorry there isn't a quick and easy reliable answer; however, my feeling is for V. tricolor.
(Note: We discussed V. tricolor ssp. macedonica on this forum before - http://www.mgsforum.org/smf/index.php?topic=276.0. Although that plant looks very similar, it does not occur in your area.)
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Fascinating stuff Mike and thanks. The flower I photograped was found growing through gravel under the shelter/shade of a low wall where I had placed the potted plant given to me in early summer before deciding where to put it. Obviously some seed fell and found the place to its liking. The parent plant is still only in bud.
Lovely 'photos Helena violet and the one of "Freckles" is just how I remember it from England.
Am downsizing garden shortly and feel that Violas will become a new favoutite with me :)
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Thanks for your help Mike. I'll report back when I have done some homework.
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Hi Umbrian,
You will find a big ant in the wildlife section - here is a little one - struggling with a seed of Viola odorata (St.Helena violet). It is not surprising to see why violets suddenly appear in unexpected places. I deliberately moved the seed on to the leaf and this greedy little ant quickly set about retrieving its prize. Curiously, the St.Helena violet grows well in the hot summer weather where I live. Smallish and compact. Slow but easy to propagate from runners. However, inspite of several attempts I haven't been successful in germinating it from seeds. Maybe the ants will succeed? :)
Cheers, H:)
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Great photostudy, Helena.
The thought is that the elaisosome (the white part on the side of the seed proper) is mimicking an ant larva/pupa. We can see there is a similarity in size and colour. But I think it goes deeper than that: the elaiosome actually smells right. All that means that, not only do ants sniff out the violet seeds (rather than just stumbling across them), they take them back to their nest - underground and in nice finely tilthed earth!
Because Viola odorata and related violets have evolved this strategy with ants as a means of dispersal, their seed pods lie on or near the ground and when they open, the seeds just tumble gently out. That's in contrast to other violets, such as V. riviniana, which accomplish dispersal by ballistic ejection of the seeds from the pods, which are held upright above the leaves. It is no coincidence that the seeds of the latter type of violet do not have elaiosomes.
Just to pick up on violet seed pods being 'held upright above the leaves'...
Most of the time, the top of the flower stem is turned over, so the flowers face somewhat downwards. That persists after the seed pod is formed. But, in species that use ballistics for seed dispersal, shortly before the pod starts ejecting seeds, the top of the stem turns up, thus aiming the pod at the sky to achieve furthest dispersal. You can see what I mean in the last photo in my article on Viola elatior.
http://www.mikehardman.com/plants/viola/elatior.htm
Because violets can spend quite a while in the 'fat pods' stage without the seeds being ripe, it can be tricky when it comes to collecting seeds. The trick is to wait until the pod turns up: that's the signal that the seeds are very nearly ready. Also, the pod's green colour may become yellowish or brownish. Then you can collect the seed pod; best done by nipping it off at the base of the stem - leaving the sap in the stem to allow a bit of final ripening. Put the pod+stems in a closed paper (not plastic) bag and wait. You'll hear the seeds pinging off the inside of the paper.
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Thanks, Mike, for posting the link to your very interesting article on V.elatior.
Here is my simple solution to seed collection. Empty tea bags. They are strong, porous and dry quickly if they get wet so the pod continues to develop and won't rot. When ripe the pod bursts and you collect the seeds.
Cheers, H :)
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Yes - good, and well shown in your photo.
I do the same thing with individual pods from flowers that I have intentionally cross-pollinated.