The MGS Forum
Miscellaneous => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: John J on September 29, 2013, 08:25:35 AM
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One of the subjects guaranteed to annoy me is that of plant labelling in 'garden centre/nurseries'. They usually range from no labels at all through mis-spellings to mis-identification, taking in the use of local, colloquial names on the way. On a recent visit to one not too far from us I took the following photos. The first one uses a local name, maybe some of you will recognise it, those living in Greece anyway. The second shows 2 labels from the same plant. One that I didn't get a picture of is one that I have come across in several establishments. A shrub with white flowers that is commonly labelled simply, Montana. I have, however, seen it in one centre as Montana taverna.
Possibly the most annoying, or at least disappointing, aspect in many cases is the apparently careless attitude displayed by the majority of the staff in these places. Surely anyone selling any product, no matter what it is, should take an interest in finding out exactly what it is they are selling, what it does, how it works, etc, so that when asked questions by a potential customer they do not have to resort to the customary shrug of the shoulders and raising of the eyebrows.
Climbing down from high horse now.
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You are right John. I get annoyed also.
But it doesn't make any difference. I find that when I tell them which plant it is and show it to them on their computer, via Google, they are not interested. The next time I visit, the plants are still not labelled and are showing signs of stress from indifferent watering.
The garden centres here are very different to the ones I knew in England. Whereas the garden centres in England can diversify and sell everything from chemicals to Christmas decorations, here they only sell plants, pots and bagged compost.
One would think that they would make the most of what they have.
I do accept the different outlook and way of life here, and am happy to do so, but I must admit, I find this attitude baffling.
Daisy :)
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Surely this should be a goal, written or unwritten, official or unofficial of members and branches of the MGS?
When it comes to attitude towards clients spending their money come and live in France.
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John, from a search on google.gr it appears that Coralli is Russelia equisetiformis.
I also wondered if your Montana or Montana taverna was Tabernaemontana.
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Exactly, Alice, one of the common names of Russelia being Coral plant in Cyprus, and I believe in Greece, it is generally known as Coralli. As you also rightly deduced the Montana is indeed Tabernaemontana. I knew the plants and I'm sure that yourself and the majority of the contributors to this forum would have recognised them too but why should others, who may be coming across them for the first time, not be given the correct name so that they can go away and look them up to see how they perform. Anyone looking for a plant called Montana would be looking for a very long time without finding the correct one.
David, several years ago members of the Cyprus Cactus & Succulent Society along with members of the MGS did look into the possibility of introducing a standardised labelling system that also incorporated a drought tolerance code for each plant. Needless to say it met with resounding indifference from those who would have had to instigate it.
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Another thing which can be most confusing is the description of a plant, apparently indicating a place of origin. I have come across "Chiotiko" yiasemi (Jasminum grandiflorum) and Rhoditikos Fikos (Ficus retusa) which can lead one to believe erroneously that these are native species, originating in the Greek islands of Chios and Rhodes, respectively. It could be that many of these plants are grown in these places or that a supplier was based there or there could be some other obscure reason. Perhaps your Thai jasmine was imported from Thailand, John. Well, it keeps one amused!
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When I first came to live in Italy over 15 years ago I too was very disappointed at the lack of UK type Garden Centers but gradually came to appreciate visiting nurseries where plants were the only things on offer with no temptation to spend money on other things. The poor choice of plants, badly labelled and often badly cared for however was more frustrating. Gradually things have improved and there is even a UK style Garden Center in my local town now where the staff, in the main ,seem to have a genuine interest in their work. I have also built up a list of worthwhile nurseries that specialise in material suitable for Mediterranean gardens. As regards labelling/naming of plants, the use of "local" names was a cause of great frustration and only with an increased ability to converse in Italian did I start to make headway when trying to acquire specific things.
I think those of us who care about such things should persevere by talking to the staff and pointing out examples of bad labelling, hopefully those businesses eager to be successful will start to take note and improve.
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I wonder what comes first , the chicken or the egg? Growers are not going to label correctly unless there is a demand from the public. Perhaps, John you could ask Filippi at the AGM "did he create the demand" or "was the demand always there and he just satisfied it"?
Growers do not like being told that they, the "Expert" have got it wrong, especially by a foreigner. Yes things are improving. Many of the staff at the pan national garden centres are now trained at least at a Technical school however the old cooperatives are pretty bad. Some of the smaller growers and there are not many do try. I did buy a P.alopercuroides correctly labelled recently.
Labelling could well be covered by an "Education group" within the MGS, but perhaps that is a question for the other Forum.
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I omitted to mention that the plant with the 2 labels proclaiming it to be 'thai jasmin' is actually a Wrightia religiosa which is, I believe, very popular in Thailand. Less popular in Cyprus as this is the first one I have come come across here. Not surprising as one of its requirements is constant watering, not for nothing is it known as Water Jasmine. Where this guy got his from I have no idea.
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Surely growers such as Filippi will always make sure their plants are properly labelled whether they are destined to be bought by casual gardeners or experts seeking specific plants/varieties? A matter of professional pride and commitment to their work that must be encouraged throughout the industry and, yes, perhaps with some help and encouragement from the MGS :)
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David, Well worth continuing to talk about ways to encourage nurserymen to label plants better, etc, on this forum (as well as / instead of the other forum)! Good idea.
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John, much as I hate to disagree with you – I do! Having never gardened in England I don’t expect to find plants labelled and the nurseries I frequent are run by their owners who may not know the Latin names but can tell me lots of other useful growing information. I exchange plants with a few of them and visits usually turn up something interesting. Inevitably I find well-labelled English garden centres pretty soulless – and the plants usually die when I get them to Greece - just the labels live on.
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I find all your points vaild Fleur, when I first came to Italy I was lost when visiting local nurseries and finding no "proper" labels My Italian was very poor in those days and I really struggled. However just like you I now have built up a good rapport with some of the owners.and it is a pleasure to visit them. Some of the more business minded ones have realised that good labelling does help them with the considerable expat community here who are often frequent customers.
UK garden centres vary considerably, some being mere commercial ventures whilst others do pay attention to staff training and quality of service. Howver small, specialist nurseries still abound where you can find good personal attention. I soon realised however that importing plants from the UK was not always a good idea as they are raised in conditions very different to those in which they will be growing here. The same applies to many of the plants that are increasingly being imported here from the Netherlands where many of the more ambitious nurseries/garden centres are sourcing plants. I try now to get specific "wants" from specialist Italian nurseries to avoid disappointments.
Overall I am in favour of well labelled plants. The use of the latin names is considered snobbish and elite by some but it does avoid confusion - however plant/garden enthusiasts usually manage to find common ground in these matters as I think we agree ;D
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I haven't had much experience of English garden centres over the last couple of decades so I can't comment on your soulless tag, Fleur. On recent visits to UK I've made a bee line for a specialist nursery near Newark in Notts, mostly to scope out his Hedychium stock. You are fortunate to find nursery owners who can give you useful growing info. Apart from our friend Yiannos Orphanos the ones here seem to range from clueless (they give out totally spurious info) to heartless (they don't care that the info is spurious). One that I visited recently was proud of the fact that the majority of his stock was imported from the Netherlands (just as you say, Carole), Israel and Thailand. Israel I have no problem with but I was not aware that either Holland or Thailand had a mediterranean climate.
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No John, Holland certainly does not have a Mediterranean climate but does have acres of fertile land and some very experienced growers producing many wonderful plants. It is all part of a vicious circle really, we like it when nursery owners/garden centres in countries such as ours look to widen their stock and offer more unusual plants and cannot really blame them when growers in Holland offer many tempting things in a very professional way. They do not stop to consider if the plants they order are suitable for a Mediterranean climate, but, in my experience ,just go for the showy things in many cases that they know will sell readily.
Perhaps this is an area where we members of the MGS could be active in trying to educate receptive nursery owners on the merits of stocking plants adapted to the country where they operate?
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Montana taverna, eh? Sounds like the whole situation calls for just that: a tavern in the mountains and a nice long sit down with a glass of crisp white wine. tn
And Yes we have all those problems too despite a national nursery industry that says it is dedicated to quality service inc accurately and properly named plants. Ah, well at least it's better than in Sth America - no labels, plenty of weeds, garden soil used instead of soil-less potting mix - more weeds and seeds + grubs and bugs. no PVR paid, plants deliberately mis-labelled to avoid the suggestion of liability, and plenty of plant smuggling, except in Chile where the export trade is hugely important.
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Despite our desire for well and accurately labelled plants I found an article that I read in the Daily Telegraph today quite disturbing.Apparently there are plans to ensure through legislation (EU Bureaucrats at it again) for it to be mandatory for all plant varieties to be labelled with a detailed description that is both legally and botanically precise. Originally this was to safeguard the right of plant breeders who introduced a new selection but could now be extended to all plants at great expense to all concerned when you consider the implications of the word "legally" However much we might welcome better plant labelling do we, as the article points out at the end, want "a future world of Eurocrat approved garden plants" something it describes as "a bleak prospect"
Comments please....I think we have some plant breeders on the Forum and then there are all of us who are just customers.......
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Rosie Peddle BH in Spain is circulating an email asking members etc to sign an attached petition requesting MEP s and legislators etc to think twice about this new law. Suggest you contact Rosie.
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Carole, I am in two minds about this. I am not in favour of expensive burdensome regulations in the EU (and I can tell you I DO know about the daft and very costly EU regulations required in our own business in London)!
However, I am fed up with the way garden centres here in Spain get away with putting virtually nothing on the label e.g. Rosal, salvia, lavanda, stating the very obvious but without varieties and certainly no binomial nomenclature. As well, often it is the Spanish or Valencian local name and that can vary between establishments.
I have found it hugely frustrating and it is a sheer pleasure for me to visit an enlightened plant centre where I can see names that are universal.
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It's amazing what you may find even here in Norway. It is - 11 oC outside today, not exactly Mediterranean, but I have a Clerodendrum ugandese on my window sill. It was properly named, but no information about climatic requirements, it was sold as an outdoor plant.
I hope I will be able to keep it alive until next spring, then bring it to Greece.
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There's been a lot of discussion on the Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum about this issue http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10845.15 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10845.15)
cheers
fermi
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The RHS journal 'The Garden', Nov13 p.8 mentions the EU 'plant reproductive material' registration and description proposed legislation, which includes a link to the legislation itself - http://tinyurl.com/cdnd2kc.
The article points out that a stakeholder group, including the RHS, HTA, NFU and seed companies is providing DEFRA with information to present the UK's case to the EU. They want ornamentals removed from the legislation, or failing that recommending a number of changes.
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Update:
The EU is listening, and may slacken its proposed legislation for ornamentals.
It may replace 'officially recognized description' with 'commonly known', which has been used before but would now have a more precise definition.
This is just an amendment under discussion at the moment. Negotiation on the legislation are scheduled to begin early in 2014. Meanwhile the stakeholder group stated there is a need to continue to raise the issue with MEPs.
[The RHS journal 'The Garden', Dec13 p.8]
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Just to add to the issue...
The RHS journal 'The Garden', Dec13 p.9 points out that some Aster will move to new genera, based on DNA and non-DNA data. The new names will appear in the 2015 edition of The RHS Plant Finder.
They're already in use in the USA, and have been ranted over for some years
- http://gardenrant.com/2008/08/you-say-aster-i.html
Some of the new(ish) genera:
- Symphiotrichum (Michaelmas daisies)
- Eurybia
- Ampelaster
(I state them here so future searches of this forum may get a hit.)
Full list of genera in Astereae - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astereae
If you want the scientific nitty-gritty on this stuff (though still going only as deep as genera) , don your anorak and head over to the Angiosperm Phylogeny Group at
http://www.mobot.org/MOBOT/research/APweb/welcome.html
Mike
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In the Comments section of the January issue of the RHS magazine, The Garden, a member from Essex has raised the question of plant labeling. She feels that plant suppliers should provide more information with the plants they sell. She cites as examples, whether a plant will die back in winter, or will it need support when in flower. She also goes on to complain that seed packets do not provide detailed enough instructions as to how to germinate and grow on the seed enclosed, and that the little diagrams employed by most companies are totally inadequate for purpose. She goes on to suggest that all plants should have a waterproof pocket containing an information leaflet attached to their pot. Possibly this may be one solution in an ideal world but, personally, I see a few problems with it. For one thing the costs; of producing such leaflets; purchasing thousands of waterproof pockets; the extra hours of labour involved in attaching them to individual plants; would need to be passed on to the customers resulting in higher overall prices for the plants. The RHS ends the piece by asking what information members feel should be supplied with plants and seeds. Could I echo that and ask what Forum members think about this subject?
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John,
Somewhat obviously, I think it has to be a compromise.
A. At one extreme, one could argue for:
- a picture
- a common name
- a botanical name
- number of seeds in the packet
- synonyms
- full description, including year-round appearance
- dimensions
- soil, temperature/hardiness, light and other cultural preferences
- pests & disease issues
- toxicity
- longevity of the seeds
- provenance
- advised seed storage conditions
- health benefits, Calories(!), feng shui...
- insect attractance (eg. for butterflies/bees) / repellance (eg. for mosquitoes)
- photogenic qualities
- literature references
- etc. (and facts blur with opinion at some point)
- and all that in every language under the sun
Of course, that would require either a huge packet, impossible small text (more complaints), or a folded leaflet
B. At the other extreme:
- a picture
- a common name
- a botanical name
- number of seeds in the packet
Personally, I'd settle for B.
...Providing the botanical name is correct - because that would enable me to get all the other info (A) and more.
If I had internet access (eg. through a mobile data plan), that info could be available at the point of sale
But for too many folks, that would not be the case: they would be deprived of data at the point of sale and therefore compromised in the ability to make a well-informed buying decision.
However, there do seem to be logical alternatives...
For instance: B. + barcode, with the ability to look-up that barcode and get detailed info:
- in a book at the point of sale
- on the vendor's web site, where details would be available
The two could be combined if a kiosk terminal was provided, so the customer could swipe a packet of seeds and read about it on screen, in their language of choice. Perhaps too expensive, yes. It would be more cost effective if the system could also handle barcodes/info on potted plants.
It will always be difficult for vendors to find a compromise that suits all customers.
They have already tried to do that in using symbols - which save space and are multilingual.
I wish them good luck.
Meanwhile, the best things they can do are:
1. make sure the botanical names are correct (even if they are synonyms; we can't expect printed data to remain correct)
2. provide a modicum of information, as they do now
3. provide an ID (such as a barcode) to enable customers to get info on the specific seeds/packaging, eg. provenance, storage.
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I think you are speaking with your English hats on. The industry here in the South of France, let alone Greece etc is much less sophisticated, both at the buyer and seller level. The best you can hope for is the local and Latin names..
However i do agree that in this day and age the industry should be going digital with barcodes and readers at the point of sale etc. But maybe that,s asking too much.
This is another area where the MGS could be forging the way with discussion and leadership.
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I think David is right. Here in Greece I suspect there is very little demand for so much information. I suspect 95% of customers wouldn't know what to do with a Latin name, let alone any other information. They rely on the nursery owner for advice. Having talked to nursery owners in my area it is clear that most locals buy whatever is in flower and attracts their eye, and ornamental gardens are still a bit of an indulgence. The nurseries here are struggling to survive on a skeleton staff, and labelling comes pretty low on there list of priorities. Of course with no serious labelling, even if one has some plant knowledge, the only way to be sure of the colour is to buy when in flower, particularly with plants like Oleander where there are so many options, but I get the distinct impression that worrying about colour is considered an eccentricity. Having said that, there is definitely more choice and more labelling - albeit very basic - than there was when I first moved here. The big problem with labelling here is that it doesn't last - it fades in no time and becomes illegible. Change is gonna come - slowly.
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I agree with David, Mike’s list A sounds nice,, but it is far from what is realistically possible. List B is acceptable, except that for seeds I would also think that there should an expiration/best-before date.
Even here in Norway, some of the very large garden centres sell plants that not always properly named, quite often you are lucky if they give you the genus. Many of these plants seem to be mass-produced in the Netherlands, and I can’t understand why they can’t write the full name, with the variety included, it certainly does not cost more than writing a Dutch name that is not being used anywhere else, and I am sure the breeders know the plants they are mass propagating.
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I think we are all painfully aware of the current situation with regard to the existing limitations in plant labeling. It would seem that this is not a localized problem but is a widespread phenomenon affecting most areas in which members live and/or garden. As David suggests perhaps we should begin a campaign to attempt to improve on this. If so then we, as a Society (I'm speaking with my AC hat on now), need to decide just what is a realistically achievable goal. What information could we advise suppliers to include on their labels in order to make their products more attractive to buyers without incurring extra costs that would, inevitably, be passed on to customers, thus defeating the object of the exercise. For instance; Correct naming, using universally accepted scientific names; Ultimate height and spread; Perennial or annual; Flower colour; Soil preferences, acid/alkaline, moisture retentive/free draining; An easy to understand drought tolerance rating. The above are, of course, just a sample of what members may find important, there are undoubtedly many more that could be added. What would you like to see on plant labels, remembering to stay within the bounds of what is realistically possible?
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It would be great if the MGS would start a campaign here. I think we should have a list of what is the absolute minimum, and then another set of what we would really like to have as well. Personally, I should be very happy if every plant was labelled with the correct scientific name; that should be mandatory and then I should be able to find out the rest myself. But not everybody has the same plant knowledge as most of the MGS members, so we should also try to get more basic information on the label. I have added this to my wish list:
Annual/perennial
Height
Sunny/shady
Drought tolerance/water requirements
Soil preferences
Temperature requirements
Time of flowering
If it is poisonous, it should be clearly written
For seeds (additional):
Some information about germination rate, expiry /best before date
When to sow the seeds
Special requirements (light, depth, temperature, pre-treatment)
Time seeds take to germinate
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Many thanks for that, Jorun, that's excellent, exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. I particularly like your mention of poisonous plants, a warning that is far too often lacking when it comes to plants. Persuading suppliers to adopt any system we may present will, obviously, be a major problem but the more reasonable we make it the more chance of success we may have.
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Are we aiming this campaign at wholesalers/importers? I can't see small nurseries (many of which grow some of their own plants) having the knowledge, inclination or resources to provide this service.
For plants I also would be content to have just the scientific name displayed.
In an ideal world a small label can also give information on the following (some of it in the form of an icon):
Common name for the country (if applicable)
Habit (height/spread)
Preferred location (sun/shade)
Minimum temperature tolerated
For seeds:
The information above
Picture
When to sow
Time of flowering or harvest
Any special treatment required for germination
Best before date
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I suppose we should start with large-scale producers, importers and wholesalers. I am petty sure that even here in Norway, most the plants you find in the garden centres are produced in other countries, a lot seems to come from the Netherlands and Germany
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After 6 or so weeks without Internet I am delighted to back and wish all members a very Happy New Year! I have really missed my daily contact with fellow garden enthusiast through the Forum and look forward to being an active member again. The discussion about plant labelling is interesting and I must gather my thoughts!
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Welcome back, Carole, we've missed your inputs too.
I agree with Jorun that as a first step we should try to identify the major wholesale suppliers in our areas. Here in Cyprus a lot is imported from the Netherlands, also Israel and even Thailand.
I also feel that we should look into recruiting the assistance of other plant societies in our areas that share our views on this matter. The more people we can get involved the stronger the case we can present. The pooling of knowledge, ideas, resources and contacts would be beneficial too. For example, here in Cyprus I know that the Cyprus Cactus & Succulent Society is of a like mind when it comes to the inadequacy of plant labelling. They not only have a fairly large membership for a small island but have established contacts with similar societies in several other countries.
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The question of plant labelling is a very complicated issue in these days of mass production when the commercial aspect has taken prime position. Specialist growers and nurseries are usually able and willing to provide detailed information but the idea of legislating what exactly should be included on a plant label brings one up against many problems many of which have been mentioned by other posters - how detailed should that information be?, how can the information be displayed succinctly and in a way that is easily understood?, the durability of the labels and the costs involved etc. Keen and relatively well informed gardeners know where to get further information as has been pointed out and it must be acknowledged that "impulse buying" especially of seasonal plants has become big business and often such buyers do not really want to know whether what they are buying will be suitable for their gardens or not. In an ideal world of course good, detailed labels should be attached to all plants but I for,one , like other posters would be satisfied at the moment if the label contained the proper botanical name plus any specific variety or named cultivar then it is up to the buyer to find whatever further information they need. The "industry" of plant production and selling, as it surely is these days, has been blessed with this possibility and should make full use of it despite those who find the use of "Latin names" elitist.
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It would be good if plant suppliers were encouraged to provide correct labelling.
I am certainly against the idea of legislation.
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This is the label from a plant I acquired a few weeks ago. I believe it came originally from the Netherlands. Opinions please.
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John it would be tremendous leap forward if we could persuade growers to use a label like this. Clear, simple concise. We do not need more information.
Of course the Dutch growers will continue to improve on this. That,s why they are the best. They are commercially savy.
Our goal is to encourage local growers to use a label and this will come thru the buyer asking for this information. Then there is the question of supply, language, photo, cost. I would suggest that the MGS sets up a small working group who could, over a given period of time, come up with a set of proposals.
Could we find a friendly label producer who would add the MGS logo and website?
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I believe this has to be attacked from two sides, one directed towards local producers and the other one targeted at large, international producers. Ideally, we may hope that both will follow the same recommendations in the future, but that is not yet realistic.
From the first group, the minimum requirement would be the complete proper scientific name, preferably printed/written on a weatherproof (waterproof and not easily bleached by the sun) label. But they need help to do that, I know that most of the local producers in my area would not be able to this today.
From the second group, there is no excuse for not being able to produce proper label with the necessary information, like the one shown in John’s message yesterday. Even the smallest nurseries I have seen in Greece also sell a lot of these imported plants, most of them from the Netherlands; they are not always properly labelled.
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I too find, like you Jorun,that many plants imported from The Netherlands are not properly labelled. The producers in that country are certainly commercially savvy as David says but not all of them meticulous in the area of labelling.Go ahead nurseries and Garden Centres in Italy who import plants from the wide selections offered by producers in that country are tempted by good marketing strategies but often have little idea whether the plants they select are suitable for Mediterranean conditions and the labels often seem more designed to attract the attention of would be buyers than in providing good information as to the requirements of the plant. Comments such as "Plant of the Year" , that I came across last year, certainly must help to market them but are really just an advertising ploy.Ideally the leaders in any field should be the one's responsible for good standards in all areas of production including, in this case, good labelling but we all know that when the chance to do business in area that is thriving such responsibilities are often ignored. We come back to the realisation that producing plants is now "big business" (rather than the pursuit of dedicated horticulturalists ) with all the attendant problems as well as, of course, many benefits such as the greater selections more readily attainable. Inevitably some kind of legislation regarding labels would seem to be the way forward but the practical issues involved are immense.
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Umbrian you are absolutely correct...." Practical issues involved are immense". We as the MGS have no leverage what ever the rights and wrongs ..or at least asthey are perceived.
I think we have to work at the local level and demand correct labelling, educate thru the branches, individually be active. There must be other areaswhere we can have an influence.
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I have been following this discussion with interest because, like all of those who have contributed, I find labelling either absent or basic in Rome.
Umbrian's message perhaps contains the seed of one thing we could do as an organisation. I have seen that some of us are opposed to legislation. But the labelling we find on our foodstuffs and clothing etc has all come about through legislation and is a thing which we expect as a matter of course. Thinking along the lines of legislation the organisation could, as has already been suggested above, draw up a list of basic information needed on a plant label and then send out a blanket press release to all euro MPs and potentially interested gardening societies and magazines. This would probably have costs. I have heard that there is a fee to pay if you want to blanket email all UK MPs, for example.
Of course, we need also to be considering the organisation's potential advisory role if euro MPs take the case up. And to this end perhaps we should be looking to ask members to contribute to a data base logging their successes and failures. It would be worse than useless to get the legislation and then find that the information found on the label in Rome, Madrid, Tel Aviv etc was invalid because it was a straight copy of information relevant to northern Europe. For example, hardiness data is very useful but what about heat tolerance? Looking at the literature there is very little information available and this factor would probably count for 90% of my failures.
It would be unfair to criticise producers for not including this information when it is not readily available. We might consider furnishing this information from our hands-on experience. How could producers know, for example, that attempting to grow crocosmia in Rome is almost certainly doomed to failure? I have to keep the one or two that I get to survive in a light space but with no direct sun. Otherwise in summer they burn to a frazzle. Not the information a producer would be giving a purchaser in my home town of Leeds in the UK.
Hope I haven't repeated anything already stated in mailings above. I confess I haven't read all the emails in this chain.
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Thanks everyone for your responses, a good base for the AC discussions to start from. As Carole has noted, and others have endorsed, the practical issues involved ARE immense, but should that deter us from at least taking a look at the problem and maybe even being able to make a slight improvement? Those who are old enough may remember the ant and the ram in a Frank Sinatra song of the 1950s who managed to carry out impossible tasks because they had 'High Hopes".
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John, it is estimated that up to 25% of the population suffers from some
sort of food allergy, so this is hardly the miniscule problem you imply.
All we are asking for is that GM food be labelled as such - so that we, the
consumers, have a choice. What is your issue with that? It is far fetched to
think that the sun's radiation will mutate a corn plant into a peanut plant
in one growing season. There are risks to food - people die of mushroom
poisoning and food allergies all the time. But at least give people the
tools to reduce their risk - whether it's properly labelled food, or making
condoms available.
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Are we on the same wavelength here? I don't recall implying that any subject was miniscule. I have no issue with GM food labelling as I don't recall GM food labelling as being the issue under discussion. The topic was plant labelling, the need for correct botanical names and accurate growing information being supplied by sellers in order to assist buyers in their choice of which plants to purchase. Food labelling is another matter entirely, and as for condoms...........???
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quite!
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After my last post I returned to Daisy's photographs to enjoy them again and it occurred to me that one illustrates perfectly the problems involved with plant labelling. Next to the narcissus are some nasturtiums flowering away merrily - as David pointed out, plant/ seed producers cannot be expected to cover all eventualities as to where their products will be bought and grown. We, on this forum, are concerned with gardening in a Mediterranean climate but conditions vary immensely within that area and I certainly would not expect to have nasturtiums flowering in January. So, again I am inclined to think that a simple label with the botanical name plus variety/named selection is the best option. In this day and age thinking for one's self, doing research and learning in the process seems to be a dying art.
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I have been impressed by plant knowledge/labelling at local nurseries on two occasions in the past few days:
1. on enquiring about an unlabelled plant I was told it was Convolvulus oleifolius! I was also given information on where it grew, its habit and tips on how to treat it.
2. the labels on these fruit trees (sourced from Kalamata) give adequate information, I think. No scientific name but, in this case, not a big problem.
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It might be worth either the Greek branch or the Peloponnese group getting in touch with Kontopoulos-Plants who produced these labels. Apparently they're based in Kalamata.
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I would have been impressed as well, if I ever saw a label like that. I must admit I have never seen any labels in any of the places where we buy plants, except once. I bought a plant with a handwritten, white label saying Μπιγνόνια, which I guessed was a Campsis. I still have no idea exactly which species it was, it hasn’t grown at all since I bought around ten years ago, just staying alive. The label didn’t last long.
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A quick search revealed this web page which maintains all their plants are bar-coded and labelled with information about characteristics and care. http://www.hellenicgardenteam.gr/kontopoulos-nurseries
Provides a list of sponsors which seems like a useful contact list.
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Thank you for looking that up, Katerina.
As you suggest, the list of sponsors could prove useful. And a look at the CVs of the Kontopoulos nurseries team shows them to be trained agronomists.
The three fruit trees we have bought with their label have been of good quality.
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I haven't had time for more than a quick glance at the link, Katerina, but it looks very interesting and possibly well worth following up on. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
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A very good and interesting website that shows what is possible when a nursery business is run by trained and committed people. This is what the industry should be aiming at and it proves that pride in what one is producing and concern with both that product and customer satisfaction is possible. It should certainly be held up as an example to encourage better labelling throughout the industry and who better than the Greek based MGS to draw attention to a Greek nursery excelling in this area especially as such nurseries usually get bad comments in this area as we have seen on the Forum only too often and of course many in other Mediterranean countries.
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Yesterday I went to a local hardware store for a few DIY items. This store always has a few sorry-looking plants outside for sale but yesterday I noticed they had some fruit trees with quite large labels attached. I was unable to find a staff member of high enough status to be able to tell me where they came from although it was, presumably, a Cypriot nursery. I took photos of a couple of the labels. They are written solely in Greek, though I have no quarrel with that as it is, after all, the language of the country. They basically describe the qualities the fruit possess and the ripening time, not the growing conditions required. Translations on request.
To digress, unashamedly, the 'grabe' variety featured (or at least the name used to describe it) is, I believe, unique to Cyprus. The story behind it dates back to the late 19th/early 20th C when the British were establishing their administrative hold on the island. The locals would present their produce for sale and would attempt to interest the passing memsahibs in their grapes by holding bunches aloft and calling "very good". Apparently with their heavy accents this was interpreted as 'veriko' and was attributed to the variety of the grape and not to its sweetness as was intended.
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Interesting little tale, John; thanks.
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Yesterday I was tempted to buy a few pots of bulbs to add some instant interest to my new garden. One pot contained Narcissus Jetfire and the information on the back of the label was, to my mind, almost worse than nothing being a load of symbols . Apart from the temperature requirements and the fact that a crossed knife and fork meant I should not attempt to eat the bulbs, the rest meant nothing to me. No doubt the suppliers felt they were providing information for successful care but undecipherable symbols on labels leave me cold.
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In Italy a very important role in the last 20 years, in stressing the importance of correct labelling with the nursery trade, was played by specialized garden fairs (specialized meaning focusing on smaller nurseries, not for the big market). I have been organizing one such, in La Landriana Gardens near Rome, since 2001 and we made a point of giving recognition, sometimes a prize, a special mention, a medal or so, to nurseries that correctly labelled their plants. In the beginning we had to be strict: during the event exhibitors were invited to remove wrong labels, were in any case blamed if their labels were not correct, were not admitted to competitions such as best plant or best stand design etc., if they had not labelled appropriately, and slowly through the years wrong-doers were isolated or grew out of their incorrect approach.
In short, we stressed the issue as much as possible, and things started to change.
During the following years many gardens fairs were established throughout Italy, and many follow those principles; I can say now that the fairs did somehow produce a general growth in awareness - even though the results were slow to take hold, and there has been a sort of regression recently, due to the crisis and the many set backs it brought .
I have always wondered if there is anything like this in other Mediterranean countries. Do Greece, Cyprus, Spain or Portugal have garden fairs? I remember discussing this possibility with Sally Beale when we went to Mallorca at the 2011 AGM., and not surprisingly (knowing her managing skills) a couple of years later she told me that she had succeeded in organizing such an event over there.
Well, wherever there is a network of local garden fairs, MGS branches could participate to those events and promote awareness: run a competition/offer a prize (give a medal, issue a parchment roll or a honor award, tie a ribbon, and promise a mention on the website) to encourage and commend nurseries that expose correct labelling during the show, and make sure to have this mentioned on the local garden magazines, radio, tv, internet and press releases.
Maybe we could produce recommendations, such the ones that you have been talking about in this thread; they should be distributed in connection to the garden fair awards, i.e should be printed out on a leaflet and given to the nurseries that will exhibit in that fair. The recommendations could also be made downloadable form our website.
The branches could then produce a list of awarded, commendable nurseries that label correctly on their homepage , to further encourage others nurseries to adopt correct procedures.
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Very encouraging post Alevin and showing what can be achieved when somebody makes an effort within their sphere of influence. It would be nice to hear if Sally's efforts had some success. This is a good example of how the MGS can make a difference - it needs endless patience and perseverance I am sure but perhaps could achieve more than bureaucratic attempts in the long run. :)
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Yes, very well done, Alessandra. I think customer purchasing power is a very influential tool when getting retailers to change their ways.
Here in Cyprus we don't really have any significant plant fairs. I suppose the nearest we get is the Cyprus Cactus & Succulent Society Annual Show that attracts stalls from the main cactus & succulent sellers on the island. I know that the President of the CCSS, Mary Michaelides, is a strong advocate of correct labeling. She has even approached the new Commissioner for the Environment about the subject.
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More thanks from me Alevin and I can vouch for the fact that plant labelling is of a far higher standard in plant fairs in Italy such as those at La Landriana than at the vast majority of the local nurseries I visit. And this applies to some of the suppliers of cacti and succulents too - one of the areas that most nurseries are woefully inadequate in.
Now, let's see how my correctly labelled Pachystegia insignis (unless its name has changed since then!) bought at the La Landriana fair fairs. So far so good but it still has to face full summer heat which I imagine is a fair bit hotter than it would receive in its native New Zealand. Fingers crossed.
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Here is another problem I have recently come across with plant labels. A pot of bulbs bought as Narcissus "Spring Sunshine" with a label showing a flower with pale yellow petals and a dark yellow cup have recently started to open and they seem suspiciously like "Tete a Tete " to me, another variety that is offered widely here in the same way. These small pots of bulbs come from the Netherlands so presumably the grower /wholesaler is responsible for the error. Maybe not important to many buyers who just want a bit of instant pleasure but annoying for me as I am trying to build up a collection of different varieties. Yes, I know I should order from a bulb specialist but delivery to our isolated house is always fraught with difficulties and rather deters me. ???
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The influx of plants from the Netherlands, complete with labels (see below), means that we have an increase in the number of named varieties on offer. However, we have to balance this against deciding whether or not each of these plants is suitable for the climatic conditions that prevail here and whether or not the conditions they have been propagated and grown under have prepared them for the harsh situation they are liable to find themselves in, despite what it may say on the label.
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This is a rather different method of plant labeling that I have to admit not to have come across here in Cyprus before. The pot obviously contained hyacinth bulbs and maybe is only suitable for this sort of usage where the plant is intended to remain in the pot, and possibly used later for the same plant.
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The information printed on the pot,as in your example of Hyacinths John, seems pretty good to me as long as the correct plants/bulbs are indeed put in the right pot. Mass production can bring errors I am sure. Unlike labels these instructions cannot get lost and presumably are printed with weather resistant inks.
The more one considers the whole question of plant labelling the more fraught with problems it gets. When I said that I should perhaps order things from specialist growers /suppliers I was reminded that several years ago a friend ordered some white tulips for a special display and was horrified when they turned out to be pink. This from a reputable bulb supplier and so it would appear that human error can always play its part.
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I bought a lot og red tulips once, most of them turned out to have bright yellow flowers, not my favourite! And they were almost indestructible.
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Which reminds me, Jorun, of an acquaintance who bought a quantity of tulip bulbs which were supposed to be white but turned out to be blue. When she realized she dug them all up and took them back. Being a strong-willed lady, she got her money back!
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Scientific Names, a different aspect of plant labelling. In my early days I used to tutor undergraduate Ag. Sci. students. Part of the job was helping with the formalities of essay writing and presenting experimental results.
The convention used for writing scientific names came up in Lesson One or soon after. The name is written in italics, (or, in those days of hand written reports, underlined), the genus starts with a capital letter, the species with lower case.
I have not kept up with the literature on the subject so the convention may well have changed. I was surprised when I first posted to the MGS Forum to find my italics changed back to the prevailing type.
I would like to hear from the experts on the Forum what the current convention is. The italic habit is so ingrained in me that I wait for some terrible punishment when I don't use them.
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Joanna, If one of us accidentally changed your italics to ordinary type, that was a mistake - sorry! Yes indeed, the scientific name should always be in italic type. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a way of putting italic type into subject headings though.
I'm afraid all of us sometimes tend to be a bit sloppy when we're writing text, though. I'll try to be more efficient at changing people's ordinary type into italics when I spot it.
Thanks for reminding us about this!
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For those of you who wish to know more about conventions on scientific plant names, there is an recently updated and quite extensive article on Wikipedia, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(flora).
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Thanks for sorting that for me Alisdair. I certainly didn't want to cast aspersions ( or cast nasturtiums, as is sometimes said) on our excellent Moderators. I assumed that times had changed and that I was being old-fashioned.
And thanks to JTH fo the reference, helpful as ever.
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Some years ago our Editor, Caroline Harbouri, sent me a sheet of instructions about botanic names - which bits are in italics and which aren't used to fox me - and by consulting it frequently I've got it sorted out. The faded piece of paper is still stuck on the wall though, just in case.
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I have that information from Caroline Harbouri as a text file, maybe she would allow us to make it available here? It is written in a very simple and instructive way, and it would be very useful.
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Please post it, Jorun. Caroline will have no objection at all.
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I have now posted the full text in a separate post, Botanical names, see : http://www.mgsforum.org/smf/index.php?topic=1655.msg11495#msg11495 and also attached a link to a separate file for anyone who wants to keep it handy or print it out.
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I recently saw on a plant label; 'For more information about this plant see www...........' Perhaps this is another way of getting around the expense of producing lots of printed labels or info sheets to attach to individual plants?
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It could be John but I am quite sceptical about the veracity of a lot of the information available on the web - one never knows the degree of expertise of the provider and all too often vested interests seem to colour the contents. Give me the Forum any day where, with input from the likes of Oron and Alisdair, I can be sure of unbiased information :) :)
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Of course, one could get a lot of information from the internet, but it does not help you when you are at the nursery and wonder if this plant would be the right one in the location where you want it, some basic information should be available when choosing and buying a plant..
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Nursery has wi-fi - customer has smart phone? It would follow the new fashion of making the customer do all the work.
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Surely the real problem, as I think was pointed out earlier (by Umbrian?), is the lack of a name. With this it would be possible to do research over the internet either there and then or back at home. Without it we need first to get a positive identification from such excellent sources as this forum. A little bit of patience is required but that is okay if it is your local nursery. What if you are miles from home and are never likely to return to the nursery where you saw the plant? A missed sale for the nursery and a missed chance for the gardener.
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Earlier this year my wife bought a passion flower from a local outlet. The label (see photo below) described it as Passiflora manicata and showed a bright red flower, which would be correct for this plant. When our plant produced a bud she inspected it impatiently every day for signs of opening. So when this morning it had eventually opened and the flower in the second photo was revealed to say she was angry would be an understatement, incandescent would be closer to the mark.
I checked the web-site shown on the label www.perfect-garden.info to find a web page entitled Plant coach and a heading Participating Companies. Only one was listed - Hoogeveen Plants located, as expected, in the Netherlands. Their web-site has a Contact Us section and, once she has calmed down slightly, my wife may just do that. I will try to keep you informed of any developments.
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Hi John,
You might be happy that it wasn't P. manicata judging by my disastrous attempts to grow it in Rome! http://www.mgsforum.org/smf/index.php?topic=669.0
Seems that John had a similar experience to yours with mislabelling of P. manicata.
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I was at a local nursery last week and I asked the owner why he only used greek names, and not the scientific ones, and I also asked for some labelling instructions. He is very knowledgeable (a university degree in both horticulture and landscape architecture), but he said that none of his customers would understand anything else. He did say, though, that he was planning to set up signs with links to internet databases and allowing customers to use his internet (when he has time...), one can always hope.
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That sounds good, Jorun, everything has to start somewhere and as you say we can always hope that others will begin to get the message, however slowly.
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To echo David Dickinson, you may have had a lucky escape! We tried hard to establish P. manicata and one or two other red-flowered or pink-flowered passion flowers (from John Vanderplank, who DID sell the true sorts!) in a sheltered corner in our Greek garden, with absolutely not a glimmer of success.
We saw P. manicata growing well in northern California and think it probably needs life much milder than we could give it. Daisy might be able to grow it well!
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Several years ago I saw a red-flowered passion flower growing rampantly up the side of a house and over the flat roof of a house in Nicosia. Up there on the central plain it gets hotter in summer and colder in winter than here in Limassol. Unfortunately I wasn't able to see which variety it was. The position we had chosen for our plant was sheltered from direct rays of the sun and from cold winds by a wall and mature trees and was on the edge of a drip line for nearby fruit trees so we thought it might have a good chance of survival.
To continue the saga of the misnamed plant, my wife paid a visit to the nursery and spoke to the owner's wife. Together they looked at other plants received in the same batch from the same supplier. They found Rosa 'Metanoia', an orange-flowered variety, that had bright lemon-yellow flowers and a Lonicera brownii 'Dropmore Scarlet' that had, instead of the scarlet you'd expect, flowers that were tinged with a pale pink. She was assured that an e-mail would be sent to the supplier and she'd be notified of the result by phone. We're not holding our breath.
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I wrote about the lack of labelling at a local nursery a year ago; when I came back the other day, it was a big surprise to see that all his plants were labelled with both Greek and scientific names. So sometimes it helps to talk to people. He has not managed to set up the computer system he talked about last year, but this was still a great improvement.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7713/16924713560_dbcbdb0f50_m.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/rMzzGd)
_Z110119 Garden center in Nikiti.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/rMzzGd) by JorunT (https://www.flickr.com/people/46063510@N03/), on Flickr
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7649/16489860114_ea8663c1e3_m.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/r89QV1)
_Z110120 .jpg (https://flic.kr/p/r89QV1) by JorunT (https://www.flickr.com/people/46063510@N03/), on Flickr
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Jorun,
What a treat to see all the plants properly labelled!
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I agree, Hillary, it's very unusual around here. The owner is great, but he is struggling, he says that when he designs waterwise gardens, which would require much less maintenance, his customers reject them, they want lawns instead.
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A bit like here in Italy where the English style, complete with lawn, is regarded as the thing to have. Must be very hard for those nurserymen/ designers trying to encourage sustainable gardening because they also have to be "sustained"
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I think it is wortwhile to support him as much as I can, he deserves it.
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Jorun and Hilary lovely photos thank you. Jorun I can read the names of the plants when I enlarge your photos. My poor photographic skills stop me from sharing the spring flowers in our garden. There are so many due to the Good Winter we had. As for the mosaics Jorun we shall have to ask the next AGM organisers if we can have a work shop and maybe we could concentrate on certain plants. A question if I may. How are your Clerodendrum ugandense doing? I have not managed to source them yet. I have tried several places. Neither can I get Salvia Anthony Parker. Chiltern's have beautiful blue varieties which I am currently growing but no Salvia AP.
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I don't know how my Clerodendrum ugandense is doing, it's in the basement in Norway (with artidicial light) and I'm in Greece, the basement is so full of plants that I'm not quite sure what's survived and what didn't. I would love to have some Salvia leucantha as well.
The winter was not so good here in northern Greece, everybody is complaining, they say it was raining almost every day from November until we arrived two weeks ago. Spring is at least two weeks delayed , and there are fewer spring flowers than normal.
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Jorun Salvia leucantha is one of our most successful salvias. They grow very easily from cuttings. I tend to grow them and give them to friends. We also have three Salvias discolor but my granddaughter's favorite is Hot lips. I am encouraging her to appreciate gardening. She will be 4 years old next month.
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You must talk to more nurseries, Jorun: you're obviously a superb ambassador for better labelling!
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The question of correct labelling seems to have died down over the last year or so. Today we paid a visit to a local DIY store that also sells a few plants and saw the following for sale with a label that proclaimed it to be a Begonia, blue flower. I'll say no more.
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Begonia! - oh dear :(
It is quite obviously a Havvina laughia
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To reopen another old thread, one plant label on a plant I bought last week has 2 names! The Italian "Santoreggia" is followed by "montana repens" but the scientific name given is Satureja hortensis. Reading up on the plant I discover that one is a perennial and the other is an annual. Given that the plant I bought is a very healthy looking thing I can only imagine that it is the evergreen perennial Satureja montana repens. Does anybody grow this? I have bought it to plant as a "ground cover" plant to grow around taller plants on the top of big pots. But what should I pair it with? Full/part sun? Watering in summer? Any experience you can pass on gratefully received.
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The Santoreggia is growing extremely well with moderate water and looks very attractive with its shiny green leaves (re my last post).
Yesterday, I went to a nursery and saw a plant that I didn't know with a label! Menta cervina. Very nice looking plant and I thought, like the Santoreggia, it would be a good plant for covering open earth around the larger plants in my pots. Some information, in Italian, was on the label other than the name - "nice in salads" etc. You would have thought, though, that the fact it is a bog plant might have been useful information for potential buyers in Rome? Now the only real question is " how much of it can i eat before it dies?" :(
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Had to smile the other day after reading the label on a Euonymus fortunei that I bought at our local market. The final line in the information stated that it could be pruned severely if necessary making it a suitable plant for graves..........